You wrote:

[about my comment, "Thanks for this fun off topic discussion!"]

>> Hey, you started it :)

I really enjoy these kinds of discussions. Just for the record, this is an "open forum" and we talk about anything we enjoy. I may not respond to someone who posts a dozen things using different names, but if its fun to talk about, I'm game.

But also just "for the record," Sam started it. Thanks Sam!

>> Well it's pretty much a fact that the natural oil reserves on this
>> continent are not enough to maintain the current rate of consumption.

Fossil fuels are finite, this is true. I suppose everything is, really, but fossil fuels are "imminently finite."

>> The days of Rockefeller are long gone, there isn't oil everywhere
>> like that anymore.

Again, fossil fuel was always finite, as is gold, diamond, copper, titanium, iron, etc.

Did you know that once iron rusts, it isn't re-used and is effectively "gone"? A person can recycle iron by melting and re-casting, but once it rusts, it's gone. Certainly, there is an option to remove the oxygen and to return just the iron, but the process is much too expensive to be of any value today. So iron is a finite resource too.

Air, water, everything - all finite resources. Ever think of that? I suppose you've probably considered it since some of your previous comments indicate you are somewhat concerned about the environment.

But now to look at that - The universe is a big place. Even just the solar system or the planet is significantly larger than mankind. Even though we've done a lot to "master our environment" - Are we really arrogant enough to think we somehow contol our fate? We use these resources, this is true. But how much impact do we really have? What is the extent of our powers? I submit to you that we're not as powerful as some might think. I'd like to see us get there though.

>> It takes a lot of imported oil to maintain a country that produces
>> 50% of the world's overall pollution while posessing only 5% of
>> it's population.

Yes. We're fat on oil. I've heard that said, even before 9/11. But now afterwards, we all become aware that some of the Muslim countries have resented us for this.

It really, really pisses me off. Those nations have produced nothing. Absolutely nothing. The numeral system that some would claim is Arabic is actually Indian. The things that the people of these nations have brought to the world's stage are almost nil, with exception of their religion. And look at them in recent history. Have they produced any technology? Have they advanced anything of value, whatsoever? Or do they just sell oil? Those guys don't even have the wherewith all to develop technologies to get it out of the ground! They buy that from us!!! And when they fight between themselves and catch in on fire, they depend on us to help them save their own resources!!!

I am disgusted with the entire region from the Black Sea south to the Gulf of Adenand and east all the way to the border of India. I have absolutely no patience with the govermenments and cultural belief systems of these people. I'm sure that I would find some individuals to be my friend there, and I try to maintain an open mind. But from where I'm standing, they are utterly useless until and unless they grow and evolve past their current belief systems.

So about the oil - Who's the fat one here? The people who produce things with their hands and buy the oil, or those that sit around and drink it?!!

>> Not a low blow, just the truth.

Mine was a "low blow," and it was also the truth. I know I need to worry about myself, and their problems aren't my problems. My personal belief system is that I should "get the log out of my eye and not worry about what might be in someone else's eye." So I totally blow it where the Middle East is concerned, and I'm a big 'ol dick about it. Sorry.

But I can't help notice that the splinter in the eyes of the Middle Eastern peoples is forest sized.

>> Canada is almost as bad. Mind you I'm not really happy about
>> factories in Detroit using mile-high smoke stacks to pump out
>> pollution that I'm currently breathing.

Sorry, Adam, I disagree. Canada is almost as good would be how I would phrase it. Or maybe they ARE as good, I didn't mean to use the word "almost" in any other way than to restate your sentence, replacing the single word "bad" with the word "good."

We must evolve and grow, certainly. But I look back through history -the Israeli-Palestinian fights over stupid, worthless land, Nazi Germany's absolutely insane attempts to kill all Jews and take over the world, the massacres in China by Japan, American slavery, the Christan Crusades, the Islamic wars, the Roman conquests and decadence, on and on and on. It grows worse as you go further back, but only fifty or sixty years ago, we have WWII, which was absolutely insane on the part of Japan and Germany.

So what I see is that, even though we may fear our fates now - That's good because it will keep our motives in check. Even though sometimes we talk about "the good old days" - the fact is that we are evolving, have evolved somewhat, and now is better than any time prior in history. If we keep growing in a positive way, then we'll evolve into better peoples. And North America is probably the leaders, with Western Europe being perhaps right there with us. I think Russia and India are close too.

So I say that Canada and America are "pretty good kids." We use up all the oil. Big deal. We do that because we're actually doing something beside sitting around in the sand.

[about my comments that America is well motivated to finding solutions for energy]

>> Motivation perhaps, but by what?

By the desire to find new energy sources. We are driven, and as a general rule, aren't a slothful people.

>> You guys might have the motivation, but that is because there is a
>> need for it, it's not a special part of the American way of life.

Well, actually it is. I thought I was lazy until I traveled overseas. Not that being sedientary is bad; To be at peace and have no real drives is an honorable thing. But one should not depend on another as a child, so if a group of people are acting as a welfare state, they are vampires, sucking the life from other people. That is something you'll find in the East and Middle East.

>> If a people have a need, they will attempt to adapt and fit that
>> need.

Yes, if they are well motivated. Others will beg and steal.

>> The U.S. (and Canada) are suffering from a lot of air pollution
>> and a glaringly obvious reliance on the whims of international
>> events (oil) so there is a clear need for adaptation and change.

What do you bet we succeed? And what do you bet the Middle East goes nuts? Once we stop buying oil, they'll try to wage war but since they don't know how to build machines, they will suck at it. And since they will have no more money, they can't buy war machines. So I guess they'll just have to call on Allah and try to throw sand.

I would submit that Opec better think about this, while they consider what they intend to do for the next decade or two. We buy their oil today, and we could be "friends." Right now, we make them rich and they provide us with energy. But this is a relationship that will not always be there. If we were to go to war with the Islamic nations - even with a complete oil blackout - we would annialate them.

>> We are apparently the most motivated in alternate energy sources
>> because we produce the most pollution per capita and are reliant
>> on oil sources from overseas just as Japan is the leader in space
>> effecient cities because they are the most crowded.

No, we are the most motivated in alternate energy sources because the supply is being reduced and costs are rising. besides, we don't control the oil. Environmentalists scream about pollution, but this is a different issue. Instead of looking for alternate energy sources, we have looked for ways to use the existing source but to burn it cleaner. We have searched for technologies that acts as "better filters." We become motivated to find alternate energy sources so that we will have energy.

A year or two ago, I suggested to my son that he might become interested in these technologies. I felt that energy technologies might be in the 2020's like computer science is today - the "cool thing" for engineers to be involved with. After 9/11, I have become absolutely certain of it.

>> Well, pound for pound, a BMW Type 3 is a lot better designed then
>> a Dodge Viper. With 8 litres of displacement in the engine, the
>> Viper BETTER be sportin' the horsies it does. They could do a lot
>> better. :)

I understand your passion. I've already told you my experiences with these two "camps" of car enthusiasts. I grew up around the most visible German car lovers in the world. These guys were who was winning all the races, and the Ford AC Cobra had been displaced a decade earlier.

Still, another large influence was from people who liked top fuel dragsters. One "camp" would always leer at the other, each thinking they were superior. So I'm going to refrain from this, and to be the voice of reason here. The little Porsche's and Beamers will do better in a road race of twisting turns, because they are designed for those kinds of roads. They are also designed with a different economic model in mind, for a slightly different kind of consumer.

Those 8 liters are what makes that Viper stomp the Porsche in the quarter mile, or off the stoplight. I used to say exactly what you do - "Look at my 1 liter Mazda," I would say. It performs as well as a 5 liter V8, wow! So I felt that the difference in size meant my little pint sized motor was immenently superior.

But as fast as we can get that pint-sized engine to run - and some of 'em do go good! - you just can't get one of today's "rice rockets" or your Beamer or even the Porsche's to come anywhere close to the large American engines in horsepower, which means bottom line acceleration.

"A good big Indian beats a good litle Indian any day." And that's how I found it is. One would be a fool to call a 944 turbo slow, especially since it will do 13 second quarter miles and 160 miles an hour. But that's as far as it goes on pump gas, and even that is gonna melt a piston eventually. How in the world it does that good at 2 liters is very impressive, but up against 8 liters, it's all done.

Say what you want to say, but the American powered supercar can lift its front wheels off the ground and set them on the hood of the Japanese and German offerings. And you gotta admit, even if said with objections because of its size, you gotta admit that this raw horsepower is cool.

Now all we gotta do is to start distilling our waste products and selling alcohol at the gas pumps. Our blown alcohol burners at the drag strips produce about 5000 HP.

[about the quantity and quality of American-made aftermarket parts for cars]

>> If you mean aftermarket parts, well I'll give you that. But it's
>> personally not a big issue with me. By the way, I'd personally
>> rather entrust the discovery of a cure for cancer in the hands of
>> 1000 obsessed scientists and docters then 100,000 teenagers
>> tinkering with stuff in their basements.

Two issues in response.

First, intake manifold and camshaft design is more complicated than loudspeaker design because its a more complex system, with more interacting parts that give rise to systemic behaviours. But that also means that it is clearly something that is best understood statistically, by a myriad of "test runs." The lessons of chaos and fractal mathematics are that as system complexity increases, systemic behavior gives rise to secondary reactions that are more difficult to analyze than simple machines. One can expect to understand a simple resonant system, but when it is combined with several others, it becomes less and less predictable.

So a person with great understanding would love to have the database of a hundred thousand kids tinkering with cams and intake manifolds. Some of them will suck and others will be great, so the information learned is very, very helpful. The 1000 engineers just simply don't have the statistical data available, and that's why you won't find a wide selection of camshafts available for your Beamer. Not even from the factory, and not even in their racing program.

>> But I dunno, maybe in the end the latter would win out.

Absolutely, the latter wins out. We've got the engineers and the tinkerers, and the two are often intemixed. It's a lot like what you see here on this forum, but it's much more valuable in the automotive field because the system is more complex.

[about my statements, "Who's your buddies? All Canadians and Americans, aren't they? Girlfriend, family, your best friend, etc - All from North America, I expect."]

>> Well this is true, but one could argue that we have no ability to
>> expand our horizons. After buying stuff for your crazy speakers,
>> I couldn't afford a plane ticket to England if my life depended on it! :)

[grin]

You will "expand your horizons" if you really want to, and at the times most appropriate in your life. Then you will have some experience to judge by, and to add to your good intentions and your pleasantly fair demeanor.

Thanks again for this discussion!

Wayne