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Re: Basshorns verses direct radiators - It's a question of size. [message #28258 is a reply to message #28256] Fri, 27 July 2007 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
granch is currently offline  granch
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Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Good idea. How about you send them an invitation as initiator and Grand Panjandrum? Wouldn't have to be Carvin. Could be some other maker of similar product. The idea would be to compare multiple stacked direct radiators with horns for outside venues, taking economics into consideration. -Dick

Re: Basshorns verses direct radiators - It's a question of size. [message #28259 is a reply to message #28257] Fri, 27 July 2007 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
granch is currently offline  granch
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
I hear you, but I have always found this mfr. to be honest in the past and so have to give them the benefit of the doubt. They post plus or minus 3 dB bandwidth and 10 dB down freq. Thus while frequency at which sensitivity is measured is not specified, it is bounded. If I get into a conversation with them I will ask about freq response graph. Carvin is not a fly-by-night outfit. What would be a "standard" frequency to measure sensitivity for subwoofers anyway?

Re: Basshorns verses direct radiators - It's a question of size. [message #28260 is a reply to message #28259] Fri, 27 July 2007 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18677
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

One thing to consider is the environment a subwoofer is measured in. Most are stating a ground plane measurement. That's reasonable since it is easiest to do and is where the subs will be used. But it's 3dB louder than free space. A woofer that is capable of, say 93dB/W/M from 40Hz to 100Hz as a direct radiator in freespace would measure 96dB/W/M in a ground plane measurement. A pair of these in a sub cabinet would measure 102dB/W/M.


Re: Basshorns verses direct radiators - It's a question of size. [message #28261 is a reply to message #28258] Fri, 27 July 2007 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18677
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

If you're interested, last year we measured a couple of direct radiators. The quad-18 Soundbridge 7218S was nice, measuring about 98dB/M/2.83v from 40Hz to 60Hz, gradually rising to about 100dB/M/2.83v from 60Hz to 100Hz. It's an excellent product, in my opinion.

We also measured a dual-18 JBL SRX728S. I liked it even better, but I've always been partial to JBL gear. It has a slightly overdamped response curve which makes it sound tight indoors without being boomy. Plus it is a very low distortion design, using push-pull drive (electro-magnetic by way of dual voice coils). It had output of about 98dB/M/2.83v, rising steadily from a 35Hz f10 to 45Hz f3. Another excellent product.

As you can see though, these are 10ft3 boxes that generate about 98dB/M/2.83v in half-space. If two or four of these generate enough output to satisfy, then I think they're a great solution. That makes top output be about 125dB/M. If that's enough - like is probably the case indoors in clubs that aren't too large - then I suggest the direct radiators. Using big basshorns would be overkill but using just one or two small basshorns would be too peaky.

If you're doing a large outdoor show then basshorns start to make sense. Imagine using 16 direct radiators. This is like 160 cubic feet. You could fit five big 30ft3 basshorns or eight 20ft3 basshorns in the same space. In either case, your maximum SPL from basshorns would be 10x to 50x greater, something like 10dB to 15dB more SPL. The larger 30ft3 basshorn will likely have much deeper cutoff too. Now imagine a situation that requires 16 basshorns like this. You would have to use a wall of direct radiating subs to try and achieve the same output with them. It would become a problem of logistics, even if you could solve the acoustical problems of arranging this many woofers without introducing weird lobing problems in the audience.

Re: Basshorns verses direct radiators - It's a question of size. [message #28262 is a reply to message #28260] Fri, 27 July 2007 21:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
granch is currently offline  granch
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Hard to measure anywhere else. Anechoic chambers are no good at low freqencies. Maybe a large brick building up against a playground would make a stab at a quarter sphere.

Re: Basshorns verses direct radiators - It's a question of size. [message #28263 is a reply to message #28262] Fri, 27 July 2007 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18677
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Yes, you're right. You gotta measure subs outdoors.


Re: Basshorns verses direct radiators - It's a question of size. [message #28264 is a reply to message #28261] Fri, 27 July 2007 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
granch is currently offline  granch
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
I was wondering. It sounds like the JBL SRX728S is very similar to the Carvin LS1802. The latter is about 12.3 cu, ft, (outside dimensions) weighs 122 lbs and was $550 in the last catalog I could get them to send me. They make a more expensive model, the TRX218b, which weighs more and measures poorer. You can check them out at carvin.com Your measurements on the JBL look good, I wonder how a stack of 2 or4 would measure.
These are all bass reflex designs. I wonder if your super cooler would help them?
-Dick

Re: Basshorns verses direct radiators - It's a question of size. [message #28265 is a reply to message #28264] Sat, 28 July 2007 00:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18677
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

The cooling plug / heat sink works just as well in a direct radiator as it does in a horn.


Speaker testing? [message #28266 is a reply to message #28262] Sat, 28 July 2007 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Wassilk is currently offline  Bill Wassilk
Messages: 19
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
That depends on the brick buildings size for the loading. That's why Wayne holds the Prosound shootout. To add to his comments, we test at a distance and half space conditions outdoors. David Lee from BASSMAXX takes the measurments, but any external noise source's, we try to make sure there at least a quarter+ miles away while testing. We don't care if it's any new subs, one note boxes, you name it. You bring it we'll measure it! We don't care what type of speaker format classifcation it falls into.

Re: Speaker testing? [message #28268 is a reply to message #28266] Sat, 28 July 2007 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
granch is currently offline  granch
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Thanks, Bill.
-Dick

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