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Large mid-high horns with an exponential flare [message #17836] Sun, 15 May 2005 07:17 Go to next message
Peter Krojgaard is currently offline  Peter Krojgaard
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Hi,

I am very attracted to the idea of making a large mid-high horn for a BMS 4592 ND in order to cover the frequency range between 300-20,000 Hz with ONE high quality (coax) driver
(for home use, not PA).

In order to do so I need a horn that:

- has a cut-off about one octave below the crossover frequency, that is, about 150 Hz
- has a “quick” expansion rate (and hence a big mouth) in order to have as little distortion at the throat as possible (I will happily sacrifice some efficiency for lower distortion:-)

Now, if I try to calculate the contour of such a horn using the exponential calculator on the Melhuish website, I get a horn with Length = 98 cm and Mouth size = 4352 cm2

However, if I look at well-respected exponential horns (TAD or Bill Martinelli’s) they seem to have a MUCH larger mouth relative to their length compared to the horns I get using the calculater at the Melhuish site.

Since, I believe that I really need a large mouth in order to make the horn work from 300-20,000 Hz, I would like to change the “expansion rate” of the horn. I consider a horn about 110 cm long and with a mouth size of 7200 cm2 (120 cm wide [app 4 feet] and 60 cm high [app 2 feet])

So, my question is:
Can that be done by inserting a "constant" in the exponential contour formula, or..?

Any advice is more than welcome! Thanks!

Regards
Peter



Re: Large mid-high horns with an exponential flare [message #17837 is a reply to message #17836] Sun, 15 May 2005 07:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

If you can take advantage of room boundaries, you can get away with a much smaller horn.


JBL has something to say about flare rate [message #17839 is a reply to message #17836] Sun, 15 May 2005 08:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wunhuanglo is currently offline  wunhuanglo
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Illuminati (2nd Degree)
For reference.

Re: Large mid-high horns with an exponential flare [message #17840 is a reply to message #17836] Sun, 15 May 2005 09:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
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Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
I'm very interested in your project. I just bought a pair of 150 Hz Edgar horns (see link), and I've been wondering what to do with them. Please tell us more about what you're planning......Colin

Re: Large mid-high horns with an exponential flare [message #17841 is a reply to message #17840] Sun, 15 May 2005 21:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Use 'em as a midrange, of course. Put a woofer below 'em and a tweeter on top and you're set.


Re: Large mid-high horns [message #17842 is a reply to message #17836] Sun, 15 May 2005 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike.e is currently offline  Mike.e
Messages: 471
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Hi peter if you look at a page somewhere linked,you can consider both throat distortion and IMD. Its certainly an idealistic view to have one driver cover the vast majority of the audio range-but in the home situation at lower SPLS its possible im told.


In Reply to: horns+air non linearity equation posted by toxicport.e on October 11, 2003 at 04:21:33:


Hi Mike,
Borwick's book is in fact pretty good. The wonderful chapter on transducer drive mechanisms (by Stanley Kelly) and the even more wonderful chapter on electrostatic loudspeakers (by Peter J. Baxandall) alone are worth many times the price of the book. (My copy is the first edition; the 2nd edition contains only minor additions.)

But even good books could sometimes be improved by careful proofreading. The formula you cited has become an "old rule of thumb", but the reason is mainly careless copying, not faulty physics. First, the intensity should be under a square root, as it was in Beranek's book (Equation (9.33), p. 275). However, the multiplier 1.72 (1.73 in Beranek (whether it's 1.72 or 1.73 could be explained by slightly different values having been used for the characteristic impedance of air)) is wrong--it should be 1.22. Apparently, Beranek while manipulating the equations accidentally dropped the the square root of two which correctly appears in the denominator of his Equation (9.31) (1.73/Sqrt(2) = 1.22). Beranek's slightly erroneus equation (9.33) has been copied to countless other places. The correct form is as follows:

D2(%) = 1.22*f/fc*Sqrt(It)*10^-2 .

This equation appears in slightly different but correct forms in Thuras et al., "Extraneous Frequencies Generated in Air Carrying Intense Sound Waves (JASA, Vol. VI, pp. 173-180 (January, 1935)), and also in Olson (Eq. (7.20), p. 224).

It seems that the air overload phenomenon was first theoretically investigated by B. Riemann (1860) and Y. Rocard (1933). If one of the more serious enthusiasts on here (Dennis? Steve? Bruce? anyone?) happens to have copies of the papers by these early investigators, I would be very interested in getting a copy.

Trad


Re: Large mid-high horns with an exponential flare [message #17843 is a reply to message #17841] Sun, 15 May 2005 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
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Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
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How easily would this integrate into a Pi 6 or 7 system? Could I use the Alpha 10 right in the Edgar horn? I tell you, after hearing Ron's high-efficiency 2-way, there is no going back......Colin

Re: Large mid-high horns with an exponential flare [message #17844 is a reply to message #17843] Sun, 15 May 2005 23:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18787
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Sure, that sounds like a good plan. I don't know what kind of response you'll get from that midhorn up high, but I feel confident that if it's placed in corners, it will do well down to a ~200Hz crossover point. That makes the lower crossover point easy, because wavelengths are long. I'm not sure about the upper response though. You might write to Bruce and ask him for measurements with various drivers. Then again, even with that information, the upper crossover point is sometimes kind of tricky. It isn't as forgiving as the DI-matched two-ways you saw at Ron's. If you want, ship 'em to me and I'll measure them and let you know what options I find.


WOW, Taco Bell does large mid-high horns!?! [message #17845 is a reply to message #17842] Sun, 15 May 2005 23:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
Messages: 1349
Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Can't link to AA from here.....Colin

Re: Large mid-high horns with an exponential flare [message #17846 is a reply to message #17844] Sun, 15 May 2005 23:15 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
Messages: 1349
Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
That's a nice offer; one I will take you up on in the future. The cool thing about these horns is that Dr. Edgar signed each, so I suspect he has a pretty good idea which driver is best suited for these.

Right now I think Ron is going to help me get a pair of Altec A7s up and running. This should keep me busy for a little while, but I must get a pair of Pi's. I have put this off too long.

Oh yeah, as soon as I get that done I've got to jump back on the Group Build and get an amp done. Shit, then there's the basement to finish, complete with dedicated music room.....Colin

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