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Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92738 is a reply to message #92514] Sun, 06 December 2020 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johnnycamp5 is currently offline  johnnycamp5
Messages: 315
Registered: June 2015
Location: NJ
Grand Master
Hi Barry.

The preamp I built is an VTA sp-14.

I'm surprised at the lack of sonic difference between the bass bins too.
Probably one of the reasons (aside from being an audio maniac!) I've swapped them back and forth so many times!
I suppose my ears just aren't that sensitive to the changes.

Honestly, almost a suddel, was going from the 4pi's to the 7's. I did have the 4's positioned in the corners as well. Overall they are extremely similar that way to my ears.
When really rocking out loudly the 7's do seem to have a clearer midrange though. Again all just my ears...
Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92750 is a reply to message #92738] Sat, 12 December 2020 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barryso is currently offline  Barryso
Messages: 153
Registered: May 2009
Master
Hi Johnnycamp,

Googled the preamp and found it's homepage and some photos. It's a nice looking piece. Seems to have hundreds of build options, too. Do you like it's sound?

My experiences with the 3, 4 and 7 pi's are different from yours. I've only heard the 7's at the Texas show where Wayne features a different pi model each year. So no direct, side by side comparisons with the 3 or 4's.

In the years he shows the 3 or 4 pi's it's with 2 flanking subs in the front. It's really helps tame the room modes in the cement hotel room.

The 7 pi's were in a much larger suite and the two subs were used in the rear because the 7's don't need flanking subs. So the speaker, room, sub setup were different and as I recall there was an amp from Found Music in the mix that year. That's a lot of differences. The midrange was very smooth and present and the kick drum was uncanny. It's what a kick drum sounds like at a concert and getting it right is very hard to do, especially in a cement hotel room.

There was also a live dvd of Yes played in the pi room that year. The members of the band are starting to get up there in age but man could they play the snot out of their music. Nothing worse than seeing a band that can't do justice to their own legacy but this was NOT one of those cases. They kicked ass. I sat there through most of it in spite of the other rooms having more goodies to discover.
Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92752 is a reply to message #92514] Sat, 12 December 2020 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johnnycamp5 is currently offline  johnnycamp5
Messages: 315
Registered: June 2015
Location: NJ
Grand Master
Hi Barry.

I do like the sound of this preamp, it seems to get better with use. I know its controversial to say....but I swear its broken in some. Ive had the break in effect with most of my new diy gear, some more than others...

As far as the speaker comparison, I don't think your view is all that much different than mine.
With the 7pi corner horns, the kick drum DOES sound more realistic than the 4 pi's.
To my ears in my room, the 4pi's with flanking subs are not way off...second closest to a live sound or "band in the room" to the 7pi's.
I'm guessing the corner horns have the 4pi's beat in the 200-2000 Hz range.

Have you ever heard the difference between a kick drum low passed at 150-200 Hz. vs. 1000-1200Hz?
I'll tell you that the degree of realism and PUNCH from the 1000Hz sample is massive compared to the other.
To my ears, mid range clarity and accuracy have a huge impact on the realism of a recorded event, it sounds more "live".
I don't doubt the mid horn is better at that.

As far as the subs, my room may have a lot to do with it.
The entire ceiling is an 8" thick x 14.5' wide x 28' long bass trap. Ive had the subs distant and it makes absolutely no difference.
Walking around the room with test tones (or music), there are no discernible nulls or modes that can be heard. The room is generally flat no matter where the subs are located.
I put them front and center for practical reasons,
and for the use of low frequency extension alone. They just happen to be flanking the corner horns (towards the inside not outside) Also they are in an alcove so the front baffles are flush with the front wall.
Ill try to post a pic.

When I had the system upstairs (exact same dimensions but no bass trapping) it was a totally different story, and the distant (and flanking) subs made all the difference. Really evened out the bass response in the room.
To my ears the flanking subs still helped the most. But then the distant subs helped really even it out the rest of the way.




Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92767 is a reply to message #92514] Mon, 14 December 2020 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johnnycamp5 is currently offline  johnnycamp5
Messages: 315
Registered: June 2015
Location: NJ
Grand Master
I had mentioned posting some pictures showing the subs front baffle flush with the front wall.
When my system was upstairs these four subs were spread around the room, with two of them flanking my four pi's.
The last pic show the ultra touch (cotton) insulation in the ceiling.
The dimensions of this room are14-1/2 feet wide x 28 feet long x 9 feet high.

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Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92819 is a reply to message #92514] Sun, 20 December 2020 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barryso is currently offline  Barryso
Messages: 153
Registered: May 2009
Master
Your room sound like it's great. In the 4 rooms (in 4 different houses) we've tried multiple/flanking subs it's improved the sound each time. I'd begun to believe it would work in every room. Obviously that's wrong.

Maybe your room is why the front firing bass bins and the 7 pi doghouses sound similar. It's my only guess, and it's only a guess.

Nice equipment rack. ANK amp on top, a couple of Oddwatt monoblocks to the side, your new VTA preamp in the middle and two crowns on the bottom. The only one that's hard to figure out is the box on top of the Crowns. And no idea what drivers are in the subs.

A lot of audio gear breaks in, some more than others. And it's not just your ears getting used to it as I've listened to fresh gear, left it running and wandered back after several days to hear the shift.

Capacitors are the weirdest of the lot. Some sound about as good as they ever will in less than an hour, some require 100 or more hours to settle, and some go back and forth between good and dreadful for days at a time. The ones that shift around are the biggest pain because you're wondering the whole time if you made a big mistake getting that piece of gear. Even more reason to set it up, turn it on, then walk away for 4 or 5 days. Hope your new preamp continues to excel and sound better.


Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92821 is a reply to message #92819] Sun, 20 December 2020 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18167
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I think John was saying that four Pi mains with flanking subs were close to seven Pi's, but that he preferred the cornerhorns. That squares with my experiences too.

Where I can use constant directivity cornerhorns, I do. They don't need flanking subs. They sound better with subs, but they can be put elsewhere in the room. There is no need for SBIR mitigation from flanking 'cause there is no SBIR.

But when the mains are spaced a few feet from the wall, the flanking subs definitely help the massive SBIR that results. They can fill in that 15dB low-midrange hole and make it about half as deep. So it becomes almost inaudible at that point.

Still, constant directivity cornerhorns do better that making SBIR "almost inaudible" - they make it non-existent.
Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92824 is a reply to message #92514] Sun, 20 December 2020 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johnnycamp5 is currently offline  johnnycamp5
Messages: 315
Registered: June 2015
Location: NJ
Grand Master
Yeah.... what Wayne said.

The silver component on top of the Crown amps is the DAC,
and the thin, low profile black box on top of that is the 4K player.

I use a cheap, little Optical Audio Cable switch box (3 source) selector,
to choose from either the TV or the 4K player......to feed the DAC.

This way I can use the sound system for any purpose- steaming, 4K Blu-ray,
or live broadcast cable, which I'm about to 86...

Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92870 is a reply to message #92514] Mon, 28 December 2020 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barryso is currently offline  Barryso
Messages: 153
Registered: May 2009
Master
Hi Wayne,

I think we're both on the same page. If I didn't express it quite right in the previous posts it's likely just from being an early morning. Not enough caffeine yet.

Johnnycamp,

Keep doing what your doing. It looks great and must sound great, too.

Smile

Re: Futzing with vibration control [message #92872 is a reply to message #92870] Mon, 28 December 2020 09:43 Go to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18167
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Razz I stay caffeined up and since I work from home, I drive Kelly crazy. LOL!
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