Home » Sponsored » Pi Speakers » Definimax 4012HO - End of Life
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90846 is a reply to message #90843] Sat, 07 September 2019 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mudshark is currently offline  Mudshark
Messages: 12
Registered: May 2019
Chancellor
That's fantastic, thank you. I know that WTPro can predict THD and IMD. Any chance of posting comparative curves, please? The JBL paper you linked to suggests that drivers with shorting rings can reduce the 2nd harmonic by up to 15dB compared to drivers without which is not to be sniffed at, particularly if it can help improve some of the midrange incoherence I'm hearing with the Delta 12LFA.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90851 is a reply to message #90415] Sun, 08 September 2019 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17592
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I've measured the 12PLB100 driver and it works well too. Same deal: It needs the same crossover components as the Definimax 4012HO and the Delta Pro 12. Response from any of those three is similar, with vertical nulls in the same locations.

I'll be adding the Delta Pro 12 and the B&C 12PLB100 drivers as options in the next few days, as well as modifying the schematic to include those drivers in the notes.

Here are the distortion measurements, taken with an 8.9v (10 watt) drive signal:

Fundamental	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th

		     B&C 12PLB100
100Hz		0.50%	0.72%	0.25%	0.04%	0.02%
200Hz		0.78%	0.51%	0.12%	0.02%	0.01%
400Hz		0.79%	0.45%	0.07%	0.01%	0.01%

	      Eminence Definimax 4012HO
100Hz		0.95%	0.77%	0.34%	0.03%	0.05%
200Hz		0.82%	0.67%	0.32%	0.04%	0.03%
400Hz		0.75%	0.53%	0.26%	0.03%	0.02%

	        Eminence Delta Pro 12
100Hz		2.12%	2.23%	1.63%	0.44%	0.16%
200Hz		2.37%	2.56%	1.33%	0.31%	0.18%
400Hz		2.54%	2.34%	1.12%	0.38%	0.14%
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90853 is a reply to message #90851] Mon, 09 September 2019 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mudshark is currently offline  Mudshark
Messages: 12
Registered: May 2019
Chancellor
Thanks, Wayne, great job and proves the efficacy of shorting rings as described in the JBL paper in reducing 2nd harmonic just leaving a bit of 3rd to worry about (or not).

If anyone wants the last two 12PLB100 on the shelf IN THE WORLD grab em now from Parts Express. I've spoken to B&C today who confirm that the driver is still in production but no-one else in Europe or the US that I can find with a search engine apart from PE carries stock. Perhaps someone can correct me.

B&C are going to get back to me tomorrow if they've been able to find any otherwise a UK disty has offered to order a pair with a 5-7 week lead time.

12PLB100 may not be the best choice from an availability perspective going forward.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90854 is a reply to message #90853] Mon, 09 September 2019 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17592
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

As you said, the 12PLB100 is still in production, but they're slow-to-stock. It kind of reminds me of the JBL 2226H a couple of years back, when they moved production from the California plant. For about a year, new 2226H woofers were unobtanium. Glad they're readily available again, though not cheap.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90947 is a reply to message #90415] Fri, 27 September 2019 08:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 19
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Chancellor
Dear Wayne,
Today I see your update on driver selection for 3pi on the website. I am glad that 3Pi is alive again with even better options.

Is there any change in passive crossover network for different drivers and driver combinations?

Thank you very much.

Edward.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90951 is a reply to message #90947] Fri, 27 September 2019 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17592
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

There are different components used for some drivers. For example, the PSD2002 uses different R1/R2 values than the DE250. The Delta 12LF uses a different capacitor in location C4 than the other midwoofers. But there are no major changes required for the new drivers. The Delta Pro 12 and the 12PLB100 use the same crossover components as the Definimax 4012HO.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90954 is a reply to message #90951] Fri, 27 September 2019 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 19
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Chancellor

Wayne Parham wrote on Fri, 27 September 2019 09:22
There are different components used for some drivers. For example, the PSD2002 uses different R1/R2 values than the DE250. The Delta 12LF uses a different capacitor in location C4 than the other midwoofers. But there are no major changes required for the new drivers. The Delta Pro 12 and the 12PLB100 use the same crossover components as the Definimax 4012HO.

Thank you very much!
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #91036 is a reply to message #90415] Mon, 07 October 2019 08:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mabob is currently offline  Mabob
Messages: 11
Registered: December 2017
Location: Finland
Chancellor
Checking in to see if anyone have upgraded or built new 3Pi:s with
either the B&C 12PLB100 or Delta Pro 12A?

As @Mudshark said, the B&C availability
isn't very good. Blue Aran in the UK seem to have
2pcs coming in the middle of this month.

I´m about to pull the trigger on Delta Pros. Still a bit unsure if
these will give me a significant update compared to the 12LFA? I feel that
there's quite a bit low end output and kick missing.

I read what @Symphonimind wrote earlier.
"I have tested both Delta 12LFA and Delta Pro 12A, the latter destroyed Delta 12LFA in every single way. Delta Pro 12A can also be tuned to play exceptionally good down to 40Hz."

Any thoughts on difference in bass output between these two drivers?
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #91040 is a reply to message #91036] Mon, 07 October 2019 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17592
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Mabob wrote on Mon, 07 October 2019 08:01
I´m about to pull the trigger on Delta Pros. Still a bit unsure if these will give me a significant update compared to the 12LFA? I feel that there's quite a bit low end output and kick missing.

Do not forget that this design almost requires flanking subs for deep bass response. You can consider it to be a three-way design with the woofers detached.

They are adequate without subs, but certainly not optimal. They get better bass extension and even smoother lower midrange response by adding flanking subs. This approach provides baffle step compensation and SBIR/modal smoothing in addition to deep bass extension.

So while you can use the three π or four π speakers without flanking subs, they are designed to be used with them.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #91048 is a reply to message #91036] Wed, 09 October 2019 06:20 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 19
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Chancellor
Mabob wrote on Mon, 07 October 2019 08:01
Checking in to see if anyone have upgraded or built new 3Pi:s with
either the B&C 12PLB100 or Delta Pro 12A?

As @Mudshark said, the B&C availability
isn't very good. Blue Aran in the UK seem to have
2pcs coming in the middle of this month.

I´m about to pull the trigger on Delta Pros. Still a bit unsure if
these will give me a significant update compared to the 12LFA? I feel that
there's quite a bit low end output and kick missing.

I read what @Symphonimind wrote earlier.
"I have tested both Delta 12LFA and Delta Pro 12A, the latter destroyed Delta 12LFA in every single way. Delta Pro 12A can also be tuned to play exceptionally good down to 40Hz."

Any thoughts on difference in bass output between these two drivers?

Hi Mabob,
We have tested Delta Pro 12A and Delta 12LFA in a flushmounted config in a big baffle wall. And clearly bass from Delta Pro12A is much clearer and tighter. Mid is also cleaner with higher clarity. Sensitivity in the mid range is higher.

It sounds like a proper driver with high BL and low mms. Really punchy.

We modeled Delta Pro12A and it can play in a 70-75L box, tuned to 40Hz. With that config, you will have enough bass extension for most music.

Of course, due to limited Xmax, it cant be played loud with that tunning. If I remember correctly, It will run out of Xmax at around 170-200W RMS. But honestly, at that volume level, I will stay out of my room. lel

When we use the mains with sub and crossover point is around 60-100Hz, maxSPL will be much higher.

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