Home » Sponsored » Pi Speakers » Definimax 4012HO - End of Life
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90494 is a reply to message #90488] Fri, 21 June 2019 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17538
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Mudshark wrote on Thu, 20 June 2019 19:15
B&C 12PLB100 doesn't seem to be widely available. Most dealers are out of stock with one quoting 9-11 week lead time which might suggest EOL, possibly? Only seems to have a front gasket. Rear of baffle mounting only?

Could be. I'm not having any trouble finding the driver in stock, but I'll definitely ask about future plans and availability.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90509 is a reply to message #90415] Tue, 25 June 2019 09:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Chancellor
Dear Wayne,
I have built a pair of 3Pi (4012HO + DE250 + H290C). They sound really great in flushmounted condition. It is sad that 4012HO is no longer available.

But this is also an opportunity for big changes. And this is my request (actually, it is my wish):

Add a medium price option: Eminence DELTA PRO 12A
Spec sheet: https://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_Pro_12A.pdf
This driver is REALLY good for the money. It is not much expensive than the default Delta 12LFA option. However, the sound is miles better! The mid is really smooth and crystal clear. The bass transient is really fast, dry and much tighter. THD is also really good for the price.

I have tested both Delta 12LFA and Delta Pro 12A, the latter destroyed Delta 12LFA in every single way. Delta Pro 12A can also be tuned to play exceptionally good down to 40Hz.

Please, please add Delta Pro 12A into 3Pi's optional driver list in the plan. This driver is really a gem in 100-200$ 12" woofer.

Thank you a lot for your hardwork!
Edwards
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90517 is a reply to message #90509] Tue, 25 June 2019 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17538
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

The Delta 12 Pro works in the three π cabinet, having an EBS alignment like the other drivers I've chosen. I chose the Definimax 4012HO because of its shorting ring. My upgrade driver has always been one with a shorting ring. But you're right that the Delta 12 Pro driver could be considered as an upgrade too.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90519 is a reply to message #90517] Tue, 25 June 2019 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Chancellor

Wayne Parham wrote on Tue, 25 June 2019 09:36
The Delta 12 Pro works in the three π cabinet, having an EBS alignment like the other drivers I've chosen. I chose the Definimax 4012HO because of its shorting ring. My upgrade driver has always been one with a shorting ring. But you're right that the Delta 12 Pro driver could be considered as an upgrade too.

Thank you a lot for your consideration. I have tested many Eminence drivers (luckily, I live near a Eminence distributor) and this is my list of best performing 12" EMI woofer:

1. DELTA PRO 12A: Best Bang for Buck. High power handling, really good LF transient and mid reproduction. The frequency response is almost ruler flat for a PA driver.

2. 4012HO: Excellent Performer. Yeah, shorting ring does magic to reduce THD, I love every bits of it. However, now, it is belong to the past. I am happy that I owned 1 pair in my beloved 3Pi.

3. 3012HO: Excellent High Output woofer. It has low THD (if 3rd harmonic is lower, it will be one of the best 12"s ever made) and really smooth frequency response. It also has lighter MMS than 4012HO, together with relatively high BL motor, high Xmax (6.2mm), extremely high sensitivity (>100dB). This is really unique driver. I have succeed with it in my 2x12 bass cabinet. Sadly, it does not have shorting rings. Thus, I think Delta Pro 12A is better mid-priced option because it is much cheaper and also perform really well.
So, as I understand, will we have next 2 woofers in 3Pi Plan's driver list (one is Delta Pro 12A for mid-priced upgrade over Delta 12LFA, the other one is a high-end 12" woofer)?

I can't wait for the day you add Delta Pro 12A into the list. Many friends of mine also like that option a lot because it fits their bill.

And the last question:

How about an upgrade HF driver option with PSD2013 compression driver? BC DE250 is only a little bit higher priced, however, PSD2013 is much easier to grab in many places over the world.

Thank you Wayne.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90520 is a reply to message #90519] Tue, 25 June 2019 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17538
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

You can use the Eminence PSD2013-8 instead of the PSD2002-8 if you want. It's a little more sensitive so use the same crossover configuration as the DE250. I tested it a few years back and found it to be quite satisfactory. We don't offer it as an upgrade option though.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90525 is a reply to message #90415] Tue, 25 June 2019 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johnnycamp5 is currently offline  johnnycamp5
Messages: 262
Registered: June 2015
Location: NJ
Grand Master

If its a matter of finding an upgraded 12" mid woofer with a shorting ring, I thought the 2206H would have been an early consideration?

If its anything like its big brother....
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90526 is a reply to message #90520] Tue, 25 June 2019 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Chancellor

Wayne Parham wrote on Tue, 25 June 2019 14:01
You can use the Eminence PSD2013-8 instead of the PSD2002-8 if you want. It's a little more sensitive so use the same crossover configuration as the DE250. I tested it a few years back and found it to be quite satisfactory. We don't offer it as an upgrade option though.

Thank you very much. I got it. I think Delta Pro 12A + PSD2013 will be extremely good mid-priced 3Pi option for every one.

Ed.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90530 is a reply to message #90525] Wed, 26 June 2019 03:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mudshark is currently offline  Mudshark
Messages: 12
Registered: May 2019
Chancellor
They're not available in Europe through official distribution AFAIK. US Speaker and Parts Express in the US advertise them at $450 ea. With shipping and taxes that works out at the equivalent of $1170/pr imported into the UK compared with $540/pr for the 4012H when they were last available. US buyers don't have to pay our 20% sales tax (VAT), of course.

The current premium option supported by the crossover is the Acoustic Elegance TD12S which is almost $1000/pr with shipping and taxes. The hope is to find something better than the entry-level Delta 12 for around the price of the 4012HO give or take $100 or so.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90815 is a reply to message #90530] Tue, 03 September 2019 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mudshark is currently offline  Mudshark
Messages: 12
Registered: May 2019
Chancellor
Hi Wayne,

Any news on the replacement driver?
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #90816 is a reply to message #90815] Tue, 03 September 2019 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17538
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I'm not ready to make an announcement, but I can give a status update.

I have a pair of Eminence Delta Pro 12A woofers and a pair of B&C 12PLB100 woofers here to test with.

Both look like they will work very well from modeling and from free-air measurements.

But when I went to install the 12PLB100 into my cabinet to test with a couple weekends ago, I realized it wouldn't fit. So I put off testing for a couple weeks. I had lots of projects going (and still do) so the fail-to-fit problem pushed me to work on something else.

The cabinet I'm using has been routed for flush fit of a driver with 12-3/8" basket diameter, which is what the Eminence drivers have. The 12PLB100 has outside diameter of 12-1/2" so I need to have the cabinet routed to fit.

I could also use another test cabinet I have in storage to test with. So one way or the other, my plans are to test this coming weekend.

I could have tested the Delta Pro 12 first. And I may still do that. But I really want to focus on the B&C driver 'cause it has a shorting ring.

Then again, the Delta Pro 12 will be a great driver too. I think you were right to suggest it, and it was your prompting that made me reconsider it. It will be a lot like the Omega 15A option in the four π loudspeaker.

I am optimistic about both the 12PLB100 and the Delta Pro 12 because they both have the right characteristics. There are three basic requirements over and above the obvious desire for good build quality.

The first and the second are inter-related, being that the electro-mechanical parameters must provide specific sensitivity and EBS alignment in this cabinet. Typically, drivers built with the motor strength and suspension stiffness to get the alignment we're after also provide the sensitivity we need for this kind of speaker. But some drivers don't work in this design, and produce an underdamped curve.

What we need is an EBS alignment that provides extended bass without any peaks, and it dove-tails perfectly with the flanking sub approach. Between baffle step and the cabinet alignment, using the flanking subs act as a 2.5-way system that offers flat amplitude response with deep bass extension. It also smoothes the self-interference notches and higher-frequency room modes.

So this alignment is a perfect natural mating for flanking subs and multiple subs. But it also sounds great without subs, because even though the response below 100Hz falls off, it is only slight and there is still usable response way down to 30Hz.

In addition to the electro-mechanical properties, we have a requirement of the cone to be well damped, so that it is smooth above 1kHz. Many drivers - even some that are of high quality - do not have cones with sufficient internal damping to prevent cone flex and they get ragged above 650Hz. This can't be determined by electro-mechanical specifications or models, but it can be seen in free-air response measurements, even without the cabinet.

Both drivers satisfy each of these requirements and should prove to sound very good in the three π model loudspeaker. All that remains is to put them in the cabinet and measure them. They may perform perfectly using the same crossover components as the Definimax did. Or they may require minor changes in component values in the low-pass filter or sometimes just a nudge of the Zobel capacitor.
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