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Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #91836 is a reply to message #91835] Wed, 06 May 2020 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17830
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

DaveFred wrote on Wed, 06 May 2020 13:44
At the risk of beating a dead horse, Did you look at the Faital Pro 12PR3x0 series of woofers?

We've kinda come full circle. Smile

One of the first drivers mentioned on this thread was a Faital driver. We were talking about Faital 12FH5xx series drivers, which are nice but not suitable for the three π model loudspeaker.

I did look at several other Faital models too, including the 12PR300, 12PR310, 12PR320 and 12PR330.
icon10.gif  Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #91838 is a reply to message #91831] Thu, 07 May 2020 06:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 33
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Baron

Wayne Parham wrote on Wed, 06 May 2020 09:52
That CDX 1745 is a nice little driver. Looks like it could be considered a drop-in replacement. Honestly, I find that most compression drivers can be used and many have the same voltage sensitivity. For those that don't, a simple R1/R2 switch usually gets the SPL right.

And speaking of that, you're right that the Delta Pro driver has higher voltage sensitivity. We specify the R1/R2 values for that driver to lower the output of the compression driver accordingly. But I didn't change the three π schematic to include those values until sometime after finalizing the updates described in this thread. So any plans that don't show the R1/R2 values required for the Delta Pro driver have an older version of the schematic.

I don't think I'll evaluate B&C midwoofer options for the four π model. I do like their products, but I really like the JBL 2226H too. So what has sort of developed is the three π and six π are for people that prefer B&C, and the four π and seven π are for people that prefer JBL. Both are excellent choices, and it's sort of like a Ford vs. Ferrari thing. Smile

Thank you for consideration. I understand your choice. It would be great to audition a top config of 4Pi (which I have never had a chance to listen to).

The CDX 1745 has almost exact same sensitivity and frequency response with DE250. But I think its resonance frequency is a little bit higher. I am really considering CDX 1747 as it it even better performer. Man, that testing task is addictive Very Happy
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #91856 is a reply to message #91831] Tue, 12 May 2020 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 33
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Baron

Wayne Parham wrote on Wed, 06 May 2020 09:52
That CDX 1745 is a nice little driver. Looks like it could be considered a drop-in replacement. Honestly, I find that most compression drivers can be used and many have the same voltage sensitivity. For those that don't, a simple R1/R2 switch usually gets the SPL right.

And speaking of that, you're right that the Delta Pro driver has higher voltage sensitivity. We specify the R1/R2 values for that driver to lower the output of the compression driver accordingly. But I didn't change the three π schematic to include those values until sometime after finalizing the updates described in this thread. So any plans that don't show the R1/R2 values required for the Delta Pro driver have an older version of the schematic.

I don't think I'll evaluate B&C midwoofer options for the four π model. I do like their products, but I really like the JBL 2226H too. So what has sort of developed is the three π and six π are for people that prefer B&C, and the four π and seven π are for people that prefer JBL. Both are excellent choices, and it's sort of like a Ford vs. Ferrari thing. Smile

Is there a new update R1/R2 values for Delta Pro 12A? Could you please send me the update? Thank you a lot.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #91859 is a reply to message #91856] Wed, 13 May 2020 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17830
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Oh, yes, I updated the plans right after I finished testing each of the drivers. So I'll send you the latest version of the plans.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #91861 is a reply to message #91859] Wed, 13 May 2020 23:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Symphonimind is currently offline  Symphonimind
Messages: 33
Registered: May 2018
Location: Singapore
Baron

Wayne Parham wrote on Wed, 13 May 2020 11:01
Oh, yes, I updated the plans right after I finished testing each of the drivers. So I'll send you the latest version of the plans.

Thank you very much. I will try to update my experiment XO with Delta 12+PSD2013.

Yesterday, I tested the CDX-1747 on your waveguide. And the response is so smooth. THD is extremely low. Thank you for creating such a beast of waveguide. Your waveguide is one of the best (if not the best) 12" waveguides I have ever used and measured.

RAW Sound from CDX 1747 + H290C (@1m)
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2578&private=0

RAW Sound from CDX 1747 + H290C + 2 simple bell filters + LR4 @1.25K
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2577&private=0
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #92107 is a reply to message #90415] Sat, 25 July 2020 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rvsixer is currently offline  rvsixer
Messages: 43
Registered: February 2011
Baron
I have been wanting to build either 6pi mains with 3pi center, or 3pi LCR setup, for a few years now. Have started looking for a new house again, hoping to find one with a room that supports the cornerhorns, but if not 3pi LCR it is.

Wayne's comments here regarding listening fatigue (https://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=22498&goto=91084&#msg_91084), got me thinking even if I find a space that supports the 6pi's, might one be better off with 3pi's anyhow due to the better woofers?

I do get listening fatigue on occasion, and my assumption is that distortion in the mids causes the fatigue. If so, how does the 6pi's Delta 10 mid fatigue as compared to a 3pi with one of the shorting ring woofers? Thanks for any input to my curiosity and or incorrect assumptions I have made.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #92113 is a reply to message #92107] Sun, 26 July 2020 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17830
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I've not noticed listening fatigue when playing 2226H/Delta10/DE250 cornerhorns for extended periods of time. I took this combination to LSAF 2017, and it sounded great all weekend. I left the show feeling fresh. That's one of my "litmus tests" for listening fatigue. It's a long-term, low-level thing.

We all get temporary tinnitus from high SPL levels, even when exposed just for a few hours. Rock converts and some industrial work environments are the most obvious ways to get it. Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is too.

But low SPL levels can cause it too, when exposed long enough. And so audio shows became one of my "tests" for this, as you saw in that last post you referenced. I guess I cannot say with certainty that the cause is harmonic distortion, but the only times I've experienced it is when using direct radiating speakers that don't have shorting rings. Even when they are played well below their limits, I found that I experienced listening fatigue after the show.

And the clue in that last statement (for me, at least) was "direct radiating speakers that don't have shorting rings." Since I didn't get fatigue from the cornerhorns with Delta 10 drivers, my hypothesis is the distortion reduction from horn loading prevented listening fatigue. Horns do reduce distortion by approximately 15dB, and that's about the same amount that shorting rings do.
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #92115 is a reply to message #92113] Sun, 26 July 2020 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rvsixer is currently offline  rvsixer
Messages: 43
Registered: February 2011
Baron
Wayne, thanks that is very helpful and most interesting info! Looks like both remain viable choices depending on what room I end up with.

IIRC your previous comment on listening fatigue had involved the 2-way designs (3pi, 4pi), and pointed towards shorting ring vs. non-shorting ring woofer being the differentiator. Thus, I did not even think about the horn!

I assume the Delta 10/horn crossover point/topology/other are different enough from the 2-way's then, to effect the horn loading distortion?
Re: Definimax 4012HO - End of Life [message #92118 is a reply to message #92115] Mon, 27 July 2020 10:24 Go to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 17830
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Well, there are some similarities and some differences. Naturally, the base crossover is fundamentally different: Two-way versus three-way, different crossover points and slopes, etc. But the tweeter circuit is almost the same in all models. The adjacent crossover is adjusted to match, whether it be a midwoofer for a two-way or the midhorn for the three-way cornerhorn.
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