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Pull pin... [message #10955] Mon, 14 February 2005 04:50 Go to next message
PakProtector is currently offline  PakProtector
Messages: 935
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
throw Grenade...

How would you folks quantify the differences between SE and PP sound. I'll make a few assumptions that both are well done and otherwise sound good. The basic assumtion is that *something* is different.

So, what is this "something"?

regards,
Douglas


Re: Pull pin... [message #10956 is a reply to message #10955] Mon, 14 February 2005 06:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Trick Question?
I like the detail and sense of control of PP. I like the smooth and woody tone from SE.

Are you considering experimenting on the dark side?

nope... [message #10957 is a reply to message #10956] Mon, 14 February 2005 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PakProtector is currently offline  PakProtector
Messages: 935
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
it is not a trick question. My intro was a dry sort of atempt to recognize that it could get turned into an enthusiastic discussion.

I have heard a fairly distinct difference. It is subtle, and requires a good amp and system to pick out quickly. I have heard other things which I'd attribute to circuit design and execution( from both topologies ).

SE gets the 'that's quite different' reaction. It is often just such a difference which can be pointed to as reason to say, "better". I have seen it the other way, listening to a bunch of SE and then plugging my PP amp. Usually it is a combo of things like power and ( IMO ) putting in a better amp in. Clean headroom is not to be sneezed at. A SE design with 3-4 watts is going to be running too close to the edge on a lot ov the peaks...

I am not considerig SE for power just now. Been messing about with phono stage design...and of course the Amp project for Group Build. good news there BTW, some 20W Peerless 20-20 models are on the way to me( and then on to the Winder ).
regards,
Douglas

Re: Pull pin... [message #10958 is a reply to message #10955] Mon, 14 February 2005 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
PPs have much less distortion..>SETs have much more esp even order, hence they sound richer or fatter.
-akhilesh

Re: nope... [message #10959 is a reply to message #10957] Mon, 14 February 2005 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
Allright; tirelessly persueing the best. The SE PP question; too many variables vis-a-vis speaker;amp; source interface. Like the old Blind Faith song"Do What You LIke".

Re: Pull pin... [message #10960 is a reply to message #10958] Mon, 14 February 2005 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TC is currently offline  TC
Messages: 41
Registered: May 2009
Baron
>>PPs have much less distortion..>SETs have much more esp even order, hence they sound richer or fatter.


Akilesh, do some study before saying stuff like that. Sorry, you were baited.

Thers plenty of really really bad Pp out there too. Try not to generalize.

TC

Re: nope... [message #10961 is a reply to message #10959] Mon, 14 February 2005 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TC is currently offline  TC
Messages: 41
Registered: May 2009
Baron
Bee eye en-gee-o, Bee eye en-gee-o, Bee eye en-gee-o N Bingo was his name-O.

TC

A topology too far....... [message #10962 is a reply to message #10955] Mon, 14 February 2005 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TC is currently offline  TC
Messages: 41
Registered: May 2009
Baron


>>throw Grenade...


Music reproduction should not be a battlefield.

TC

Re: Pull pin... [message #10963 is a reply to message #10960] Mon, 14 February 2005 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
TC,
Thank you for your advice on further study. We could ALL do with more study, especially the less technical amongst us who have no idea about engineering of any sort.

For your benefit, please read the statement below:
"Amp designs with push-pull or balanced topologies can achieve lower overall levels of distortion than single ended amps. On the other hand, they achieve this overall distortion reduction chiefly by canceling out even order (2nd, 4th, etc.) distortion byproducts, which leaves behind a disproportionate share of odd order (3rd, 5th, etc.) distortion byproducts. "
Taken from:
http://www.iar-80.com/page2.html

Hope this helps you. My advice would be to read that entire page, it would be well worth your while.
thanx
-akhilesh


Re: nope... [message #10964 is a reply to message #10957] Mon, 14 February 2005 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Say T; you know this subject of course becomes strident at times hence the short replies. Thinking about your post today I realise maybe you were more serious than first appeared. Before offering an opinion I think maybe we should have asked what the application would be.
I know you have much experience with amplifiers so for you to ask that must mean something other than the usual personal agenda promo.
Is there a phono stage that seems preferable using a SE circuit?
I think lots of headroom is a good thing, but I notice those amps seem to lack a musical presentation once they grow to big wattage.
So; why would that be?
Although I have heard the big Mac 2100 and that sounded pretty good on JBL's.
I have always thought this would be an important part of design theory except that the debate gets too silly with people re-stating the obvious ad nauseum. Or defending their point of veiw or their equipment like there was something at stake that reflects on them as people instead of just helping to advance the cause of better sound for the home stereo.
Or they have some odd or difficult to drive speakers that only sound good with one type of tube or something equally silly.
So when someone is genuinely interested in the musically relevant distinctions between the two circuit types it is side-tracked with all that nonsense.
Just an observation why there can't seem to be a rational dialogue.

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