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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75266 is a reply to message #75265]

Tue, 15 January 2013 21:55

j0nnyfive
Messages: 50
Registered: June 2012
Location: Arkansas

Baron

Hey dheflin44!

I thought about that but was under the impression that connecting the subs this way wouldn't sound as good. You think it would still be worth it? So now I'm thinking about:

a.) Having flanking subs connected to speaker level outputs.

b.) Having 2 distributed subs with the summed bass and LFE.

c.) Having them purchase 1 louder and better sub that's twice
as expensive as each of the 2 subs. (and carefully positioning it).

The flanking idea is still king eh? Yay or nay?

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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75269 is a reply to message #75266]

Tue, 15 January 2013 23:26

skywave-rider
Messages: 104
Registered: May 2009

Viscount

Sorry to butt in, but in my opinion, yes. : )
Why not try the speaker level inputs dheflin44 suggested? The plate amps I have bought all have them, but I never tried those inputs, so have no opinion on their sound quality.

I edited this post because I previously made a suggestion I realized later would not work! Ask me why in PM if you want... LOL

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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75271 is a reply to message #75269]

Tue, 15 January 2013 23:59

j0nnyfive
Messages: 50
Registered: June 2012
Location: Arkansas

Baron

Hey skywave-rider!

Butt in all you want! Yes, multiple sources. Absolutely. This is designed to be a "will do lots of things very well" kind of system.

I can't really try anything because I don't have 2 subs or the opportunity to really trial and error this thing. I'm being theoretical here I guess. I'm kinda just weighing people's opinions about what's best in which situation. (I know that ultimately it comes down to individual pref/subjective and there's no way/with great power comes great responsibility) etc. But... let's have fun and speculate! lol Smile

So the flanking method is really that incredible huh? Well, I'm excited about it. I have to admit the speaker-level issue does make me a little nervous though. See, I'm dealing with people who aren't as crazy about this stuff as I am, but they're not NOT picky either. They want the best they can get for a reasonable amount of money, and I'm trying to figure out... okay, for such and such amount... what can we really accomplish? Sorry.. tangent.

Okay, the priorities of this system are:
1. Movies (because movies contain movies AND music)
2. Music
3. Games, whatever else.

For movies, I want the fullness and impact. Effortless, powerful, SPL. When big "booms" happen in movies, I want it to be humbling.

I just want to do the best I can do without breaking the bank. Smile

That's why I'm asking... 2 subs or 1. It's the extra SPL of the bigger sub vs the evenness of the 2. Anyway... it's late and I got rambly, but I'm not going to edit this down. I'll keep my posts short for a while. Razz

Oh! P.S. Are flanking subs only for these controlled directivity type of speakers, or is this for your more usual "cone and dome" speaker as well? Does the speaker type matter?
Thanks guys!

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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75272 is a reply to message #75271]

Wed, 16 January 2013 09:05

rkeman
Messages: 78
Registered: March 2010
Location: Florida

Viscount

The theory behind flanking subwoofers is valid and the approach is useful in many circumstance, but remember that experimentation is the key. For some time my home theater used subwoofers flanking 3Pi front speakers and a phantom center with fine results, but using a summed subwoofer channel with the same speaker layout had a similar frequency response and was easier to implement with the chosen electronics. A change to 6Pi front left and right speakers and a 3Pi center channel obviated the need for flanking subwoofers entirely. Try a variety of configurations (L - Sub - Sub - Right worked best in my room) and crossover frequencies if going with the subwoofer and satellites approach. Electronic room correction is also an option worth exploring if your AVR offers the feature. The results may be surprisingly good. Obtain a good sound level meter and test discs or a measurement system such as Dayton Audio's Omnimic if possible as these really aid in correctly setting up any stereo or home theater.

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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75273 is a reply to message #75272]

Wed, 16 January 2013 11:38

dheflin44
Messages: 47
Registered: November 2012
Location: Carrollton, TX

Baron

I haven't tried high-level sub inputs before, but they should be fairly close to the quality low-level inputs. Most of the complaints with high-level inputs have to do with cheaper HTIB systems that implement a passive crossover inside the sub to separate the sub/main outputs. In your case there will be no crossover between the mains and their flanking subs.

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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75274 is a reply to message #75273]

Wed, 16 January 2013 12:50

j0nnyfive
Messages: 50
Registered: June 2012
Location: Arkansas

Baron

Guys I want to thank you all for you continued, VERY helpful advice! I have learned a lot from just this one thread!

From reading through this thread and many other forums, sites, and articles... I am convinced that two subwoofers is the way to go. My reasoning is this:

a. Possible flanking.

b. Possible distributed ala Parham, Geddes, and others...

c. An experiment at Sound and Vision seemed to indicate that
after blind listening to one 15-inch, two 12-inch, and four 8-inch, people tended to like all three for one reason or another but were excited about implimenting a middle-of-the-road "2 sub" approach.

d. Possible stacking.

e. Other research (I forget where) seemed to indicate a perceptive "spatiousness" was caused by having two or more subs spread out over a distance vs just one or more in the same spot.

f. One forum member on another site mentioned the idea that some subwoofers may be localizable via harmonic distortions or other phenomina besides frequency, and that having two subwoofers up front could create a "stereo image" of this distortion, thereby placing it (appropriately) in the center. (Or at least prevent all the action from sticking to one side.)

Also, from my own observations from reading many differing opinions on two or more subs: I've observed on other forums that even when people INTEND to stop at one "mega sub", they rarely do. lol In just about every thread I read through, there were multiple people who intended to stop at one, but just couldn't. But, on the other hand, it seems that many people are more than satisfied with only two subs. Three would be icing on the cake. Many people tend to be willing to buy 2 "monsters", but the 3rd one... they have a harder time with that idea. lol Two seems to be the sweet spot. Makes sense!

From my own personal tendencies, I don't think I would want to buy a third sub. Instead, I would buy two BETTER subs, replace the ones I was using, and try to use all four subs! If adding a third wouldn't be as great an improvement as adding a second, then why not skip to the chase and add two more! lol This also opens you to the possibility of building two systems both with 2 subs.

Lastly, having more than one sub opens you to far more ways to have fun experimenting. I think it does anyway. Not only can you experiment with the subs relationship to the room, but you can see how they affect each other, and also play around with flanking and using higher frequencies, etc.

My conclusion? In most cases, you should probably always plan to buy subs in pairs. Smile

(If money permits!)

What do ya'll think? Post was too long wasn't it? lol
Thanks for your help!

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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75275 is a reply to message #75274]

Thu, 17 January 2013 19:46

gofar99
Messages: 1902
Registered: May 2010
Location: Southern Arizona

Illuminati (5th Degree)

Hi, Too long, never. You gave me some ideas. All probably bad as my system is just fine now. A pair of Martin Logan Vista electrostatics and a pair of Martin Logan powered subs. But..... I have 4 more other brand powered subs in storage. Now if I put one in each corner of the room for max room gain and the other two in the middles of the flanking walls.... If I cranked everything up at once it would probably cause serious internal gastric distress not to mention possible structural failure of the room. Then to top it off I have a pair of 7.5 cubic foot un-powered subs and a few spare amps and crossovers. Seismic overload. Laughing

Anyhow, I certainly agree on the minimum of two subs. In my case two really are enough that's why the others are in storage right now. I did at one point try 4 in various combinations of flanking, asymmetric and symmetric patterns and found that it was difficult to avoid serious peaks and nulls. With only two and some reasonable test gear you can usually make two work IMHO.

Good Listening
Bruce

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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75277 is a reply to message #75275]

Fri, 18 January 2013 11:33

j0nnyfive
Messages: 50
Registered: June 2012
Location: Arkansas

Baron

Hey gofar99,

You would probably get a good workout with that setup as well!! If you're going to go that route, let me make a suggestion: Pepto Bismol. lol

Yeah, something I didn't list but has been mentioned elsewhere is room aesthetics. Having two subs looks more symmetrical, and having randomly placed distributed subs would allow for easier concealment probably. Anyway...

Now I'm curious gofar, you brought up a good point... To integrate DIFFERENT subs with the two you already have, what are some things you need to watch for? What kinds of subs play well together, and what kind do not?

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Re: Subwoofers vs budget... where do you draw the line? [message #75281 is a reply to message #75277]

Fri, 18 January 2013 14:40

gofar99
Messages: 1902
Registered: May 2010
Location: Southern Arizona

Illuminati (5th Degree)

Hi, the problems I ran into were routed in the room dimensions and the spacing of the subs. Wayne is the expert here, but the wave length of sound in frequencies below say 200HZ is fairly long and in many cases a multiple of a room dimension. It is real easy to cause nulls and peaks with subs. The spacing between any two can (will) cause nulls and peaks as well. So when you try to marry up all the nulls and peaks into a unified sound it quickly gets out of hand. Move one sub and cause problems with two more and so on. Even with good test gear it can quickly become an effort in frustration. I ended up with the two I have side by side next to my listening chair. It was the right distance from the mains to plus up the sub 100 range without interfering much with the sound above 100 (there will always be some interactions). Mine are set for an F3 of 45 HZ. The mains are rated to 35 HZ and drop fast below that. The room is 12 X 17(long)X 9.5 high. The room testing program says the worst peaks are at about 335 and its multiples to 1200 ish. Worst nulls at the listening position are at 65 and 179 HZ. The placement of the subs next to me pretty much fixed the 65, but the 179 is still there. Placing my mains (Martin Logan Electrostatics) where ML said to cut down on the peaks quite a bit even if the speakers are further into the room than I would like. BTW they have a math formula on where to put them - likely only works for the particular speakers though. All in all no free lunch. I tried many combinations and locations on the subs, rather tedious doing all the measurements. Out of frustration I nearly converted the fireplace to a dual 15 inch sub cabinet. Shocked