Home » Audio » Thermionic Emissions » Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias
Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9062] Sat, 16 July 2005 13:43 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
I have tried both on the EL 84 amp. I like cathode bias sound better, but I am not sure why that is. Can we discuss the differences between the two?

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9063 is a reply to message #9062] Sat, 16 July 2005 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Forty2wo is currently offline  Forty2wo
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Registered: May 2009
Master
Hi M, (sorry I forget your real name)

The main claim to fame of fixed bias, is efficiency, you get more power out of a set of tubes if you are not heating up a cathode resistor. But with FB you are applying a voltage, aka (signal) to the grid. If this is not deep black it will be heard.

With CB you will have a certain amount of degenerative feedback , which is not a bad thing and my guess is that is what you ( and me ) are hearing

With CB often you are running you tubes deep into "class A". You can test this. Measure current across the cathode resistor . then when you switch to FB set the current to the same or more.
Try this and tell me what you think…John


Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9064 is a reply to message #9063] Sat, 16 July 2005 21:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thermionic is currently offline  Thermionic
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Registered: May 2009
Master
Some personal musings on bias:

Grid bias exhibits lower distortion (and more power, as Forty2wo noted) than cathode bias does, and the orders of distortion artifacts present with each differ. Output Z and therefore damping factor as well also vary with the bias method, and whether or not the cathode resistor is bypassed. With a cathode biased stage there is indeed degenerative feedback, but the parallel bypass cap provides a low impedance AC path to ground and breaks it. Adding the bypass cap increases gain, distortion, and stabilizes the bias effect.

A grid biased stage can be either Class A or Class AB operating class. A cathode biased stage found in a hi-fi amp is typically gonna be Class A, while a cathode biased PP guitar amp may be either class. The reason is that with Class AB operation the plate current increases significantly with output, and an increase in current drawn through the cathode resistor creates a higher bias voltage, according to Ohm's Law. If an amp is (cathode) biased into Class AB operation far enough away from Class A, it will increase it's bias voltage on the fly enough with increased output wattage to the point where crossover notch distortion becomes horrendous. As you increase the volume further, it'll sound more and more distorted until it actually starts losing volume from the power tubes being cut off!

That's of course worthless for hi-fi. But, there are a few guitar amps like the legendary Vox AC30 (and boutique clones) that use a cathode biased Class AB output stage to produce a unique set of harmonics as the amp is turned up. The AC30 is biased close to Class A operation, so the power tubes' current draw doesn't increase really sharply with output, which keeps it out of trouble.

Another difference with cathode and grid bias is that with cathode bias, the plate voltage you measure is NOT the real plate voltage. The real plate voltage is the plate to cathode voltage potential. Subtract the cathode voltage from the measured plate voltage, and you have the real plate voltage. This must be taken into account when designing a cathode biased stage on the plate characteristic curves.

Thermionic

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9065 is a reply to message #9063] Sun, 17 July 2005 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Hi John; Thanks for the help. I will try your suggestion but I will need to restore the circuit to FB at some point. Can you tell me exactly what you mean by the term deep into class A?

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9066 is a reply to message #9064] Sun, 17 July 2005 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Thanks T; Can you explain how the bias scheme used affects zout? I am under the impression that is controlled by the primary impedance of the OPT.

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9067 is a reply to message #9065] Sun, 17 July 2005 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I think he probably means the tube is biased so that it conducts a lot at idle. If you set idle current past 50% of saturation, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot but up to that point there is some room to play with biasing.

Class A circuits have the active component always conducting, never cutoff even at idle. Class B is push-pull where each device is set for zero idle current, so that it only begins to conduct on its half cycle. Class AB is a push-pull configuration that sets each active device quiescent current above zero, so each device conducts through the crossover region. It prevents switching spikes and reduces distortion. So Class A is conductive all the time, Class B is cutoff at opposite half cycles and Class AB is somewhere in between.

The whole idea of single-ended circuits is to set the active element in the middle of its linear range, basically right at its 50% current point at idle. Then the input will swing current above and below that, with maximum output being near the point where the device is completely saturated on the positive side and completely cutoff on the negative. If the idle current is too far off 50% either way, you'll hit one of the limits considerably before the other one, wasting some of the dynamic range potential.


Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9068 is a reply to message #9067] Sun, 17 July 2005 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks Wayne; It was the term "deep into class A" that I wasn't sure of. I am aware of operating class distinctions. What throws me is how we distinguish the borders of conduction limits that set the classification of operating points. Did that make sense?
I am trying to understand how the bias point of a tube dictates the resulting circuit parameters and how that impacts on the Z of the circuit. I am struggling with the way that these parameters affect the various AC impedance values and why that equals different effects on the loudspeaker.
I have a circuit built on PC boards that allows you to use fixed or cathode(self) bias. I need to know why I am making a choice of bias schemes. So I can choose wisely.

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9069 is a reply to message #9067] Sun, 17 July 2005 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Forty2wo is currently offline  Forty2wo
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Wayne is right. What I mean by deep is higher standing current. How much will depend on your speakers and how much power you need.
In my case I have a pair of Bottlehead Straight 8’s, at 96-97 dB efficient, so 1 or 2 Watts goes a long way. I don’t need to run the current very high to stay in class A.
As a rule start with low current and gradually increase it till you are happy. If you are after Max power again run as low as sounds good. The more current the more the 2 tubes overlap (more class A less overall Power) . Plus more current = more heat and less tube life…John


Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9070 is a reply to message #9066] Sun, 17 July 2005 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Forty2wo is currently offline  Forty2wo
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OK, first, off how are you running your el84’s. As pentodes with a screen supply, ultralinear, or triode connected.
The output transformer (+speaker) is the load and for modeling, is the plate resistor and they are fixed.
So, the Z-out is determined by the tubes dynamic plate resistance. If you add a unbypassed cathode resistor the DPR increases. For a triode it is Rk(u+1) "cathode resister x mue(amp factor) + 1. This is the effect of degenerative feedback.

For a pentode, I don’t know ask someone else.;)

Now if you bypass the cathode resistor with a big cap. From a AC (impedance) point of view it’s not there. So you are more or less back were you started, from a Z-out point of view.

So is any of this to worry about. No. there is not much you can change, so go with what you like and don’t worry…John


Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9071 is a reply to message #9069] Sun, 17 July 2005 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks John but where does distortion enter the picture here? Also what will happen with increased current through a triode? How does the big three(Rp/Mu/Gm) interact when the current is very high? When do you exceed plate dissapation rating? Maybe this is too basic, I can read it but when you explain it I get it.

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