Home » Audio » Thermionic Emissions » What's good about tubes?
What's good about tubes? [message #8540] Mon, 18 October 2004 17:18 Go to next message
Shader is currently offline  Shader
Messages: 1
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
Why would a person want to use tubes these days?

Re: What's good about tubes? [message #8541 is a reply to message #8540] Mon, 18 October 2004 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
They are masochists. You have to go forth and listen and observe in person; it cannot be explained. Its like trying to explain what chocolate tastes like to someone who never tried it. It is all in the music and tubes still do it best.

"A Taste of Tubes" [message #8542 is a reply to message #8540] Mon, 18 October 2004 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
I understand your reservations. Semiconductors do have a lot of advantages, including reliability, longevity, size and power. On the other hand, there are some applications where tubes are more robust, so they aren't always made obsolete by solid state devices.

Many people prefer tubes for audio circuits. Guitarists have long championed tube amps and shunned transistors. I can remember thinking they were crazy when I was young. I thought they were simply contrarians, just enjoying being rebels. But it seems like the very high end audiophiles have embraced vacuum tubes again, and the guys that hung on for so long can say "I told you so."

I must tell you that I've heard some really nice tube amps. Like Manualblock said, it's like trying to describe the taste of chocolate. One thing to consider while you're thinking about it is to drop your reservations about what amp is more accurate. That was always my thing, and you can get into a big mental debate about it. There are plenty of guys here that will enter into a debate with you as well.

Here's something to consider. No amp is accurate. Some amps might be said to be "more accurate" than others, but then that means all amps are inaccurate. The best one can achive is to create a convincing illusion. That is something Siegfried Linkwitz says that stuck in my mind. When I came to that realization, I was more willing to investigate alternatives.

I don't say that to minimize engineering efforts at all. I'm still more the slide rule kind of guy than the cognac and cables type. I'm more comfortable with machines having well-defined properties than cutting and trying, hoping to find "something special." But that said, there are some real benefits and interesting properties of tubes, so be sure to investigate them when you can.


Re: "A Taste of Tubes" [message #8543 is a reply to message #8542] Tue, 19 October 2004 01:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Hi Wayne; So... does that make me a "Cognac and Cables Type"? Not that I don't enjoy the occasional "Remy' Martin". Never had it with cables though. I can't help but think some of these tube questions might be tongue in cheek. If a person is lurking on this site, you should be aware of the controversy. Have you read the Klienhorn articles in AudioeXpress? Nelson actually admitts quite frankly that tubes sound better on his single driver speakers and he says he can't explain why... they just do.
The individual with the tube question; If you can show me a SS set-up that is more musical than a tube set-up I will with great joy and tremendous relief toss every piece of tube gear right into the bay and provide a nice artificial reef for the homeless fish. Tubes are a pain in the rear; hot expensive heavy nasty to work with, please help us to rid our selves of these boat anchors.

Re: "A Taste of Tubes" [message #8544 is a reply to message #8543] Tue, 19 October 2004 02:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
Hi John,

What I really meant by the "slide rule types" or "cognac and cables types" is really what some people call right brained and left brained. One prefers thinking analytically, and the other prefers thinking artistically. But now that I look at that comment, one of the two groups is definitely having more fun than the other by the way I worded it.

I've seen analytical types that favored tubes and I've seen artistic types that favored solid state. I've seen lots of designers that were the other way around. Same with speakers, I know one guy that designs single driver speakers that is decidedly engineer and another that is most definitely artist. Just two ways of looking at the picture, I suppose. Kind of yen and yang or something.

Wayne

Re: "A Taste of Tubes" [message #8545 is a reply to message #8544] Tue, 19 October 2004 07:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Wayne; In the words of our late lamented ex-president Reagan; "There you go again", subtley aligning my position with the foggy headed subjectivists by suggesting the yen and yang thing. The right brain left brain thing, a very easily invoked diagnoses that in reality is extremely complicated theoretically; another one of those urban myths that were pre-empted by the media into one word descriptions of bareley understood phenomena. Sorta like audio measurements.
I think Taste of Tubes was a mole. A Plant. Someone looking to foment discord. Whatta you think? J.R.

Re: "A Taste of Tubes" [message #8546 is a reply to message #8545] Tue, 19 October 2004 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18791
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
I just thought it was cool that I got to plug that "Taste of Tubes" book. I think that's a cool little booklet. And speaking of cool booklets, I wonder what's the news on the latest Vacuum Tube Valley issue, number 21 I think it'll be.

Re: "A Taste of Tubes" [message #8547 is a reply to message #8546] Tue, 19 October 2004 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Good way to get Eric back in the game; Wayne. I geuss he's busy with all the shows going on. Lately it's been hit and run with him.

Re: What's good about tubes? [message #8549 is a reply to message #8540] Fri, 22 October 2004 17:56 Go to previous message
Steve is currently offline  Steve
Messages: 83
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Dear Shader,

I think there are many differences that Could, not necessarily will, account for the sonic differences. The list presented are some of the ones not discussed much. They are in no particular order. The comments are general in nature, with exceptions certainly possible. They are theortical in nature, but I think are practical reasons too.

1) Triodes have inherently low order, even order distortions. SS is typically odd order and higher orders being present.

2) SS components usually use more parts, and even the number of stages. The more parts and stages, the more the possibility of sonic degradation.

3) SS components usually use many inferior sounding parts. For instance, a SS amp uses large electrolytic caps, and smaller ones too, in the power supply for different stages. This one aspect profoundly influences the sound, especially spacially, and not to the good.

4) Some SS devices have an inherent problem with high juction capacitance. For instance, an IRFfet may have a junction capacitance as high as .0015uf. There is also the problem of higher "miller" capacitance.

5) SS devices have much worse DA and DF factors.

The DA and DF become particularly critical as:
A.) The DA is very high, much higher than the poly's or tube's DA.
B.) Aportion of the conducting mechanism in series with the capacitance is silicone, which is a poor conductor, hence its designation - semi conductor, poor DF.

As mentioned above, I mention the less understood problems that could (not necessarily all or will) cause sonic differences between components and the devices themselves.

Certainly something to think about.

Take care and have a good weekend.
Steve


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