So we rehash endlessly the same arguments and discussions while treading intellectual water. What I would like to find is a common path of understanding; like a chain from source to transducer; including a respect for the conditions of reproducing music in the home. The Japanese audiophiles seem to take some understanding of conditions regarding equipment as universally accepted without disagreement; then they move on. The best sounds in my experience have always occured in situations where the mood is set and the surroundings comfortable. They understand that all perception of sound is mediated by these interactions.

So while the equipment is important; the learning curve must be ratcheted up exponentially regarding the intangibles that affect every aspect of reproduced sound. We all have experienced the transformation of qualities of sound that occur just from combining pieces in different ways or replacing simple components such as caps or resistors; components that radically change in sound quality from one set-up to another. They seem to approach the art as in cooking; combining ingredients to produce a pleasing flavor. In reviewing the Japanese literature it appears they have evolved beyond the swapping amp/cable/pre-amp/cd player phase and into an integrated approach to the experience as a whole. Mr Barbour's contention that the older engineers of 50 yrs. past had an understanding that was accepted universally within their small community sparked these comments. Why it seems the dog is chasing his tail whithin audio as it presently exists is the question. While there has been advances in materials and implementation in the intervening time, I contend that there has not been a significant advance in the musicallity of reproduced sound in 30 yrs.
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>>The Japanese in their audio approach seem to require that their equipment transform the listener in some ways that we seem to ignore.

==The Japanese have an unbroken 3000 year track record for appreciation of art and music. In that tradition comes respect and dilligence to the craft. The Japanese recognize ones hobby pursuits as integral to ones own integrity and happiness, very serious stuff.

>>So we rehash endlessly the same arguments and discussions while treading intellectual water

==Baseball cards are to blame most of the time. We are more *statisticians* than we realize. Beating numbers in hope of a better avgerage score. To relax and commit to music is very rare. The magazines have dumped gasoline on our specsmanship race to financial and musical ruin. The emotional content (and it's preservation) is lost.

>>. They seem to approach the art as in cooking; combining ingredients to produce a pleasing flavor. In reviewing the Japanese literature it appears they have evolved beyond the swapping amp/cable/pre-amp/cd player phase and into an integrated approach to the experience as a whole. Mr Barbour's contention that the older engineers of 50 yrs. past had an understanding that was accepted universally within their small community sparked these comments.

==The Japanese approach to most anything is very refreshing if you are interested in pursuing excellence in any vocation. One also has to remember while we teach home economics, agriculture and science. Japanese high schoolers are also busy studying home entertainment systems and media. That is their "pay dirt", and of course autos and trans.

>>Why it seems the dog is chasing his tail whithin audio as it presently exists is the question

==Americans for the most part like the taste of tail. Currently our most prolific art form is modifying pickup trucks, and Hondas.

>>I contend that there has not been a significant advance in the musicallity of reproduced sound in 30 yrs.

==I say about 65 years. And there may not be anything new and better as far as sound quality goes except for very incremental resolution gains largely overshadowed by analog formats. Convenience and cost are the new frontiers. But essentially you are correct, musical energy and the preservation of that energy is what we yearn for. And the Japanese do have the edge. Ever read Japanese hifi mags? They kill western publications with magnificent photgraphy, technical authority and endless depth of exploration both in and out of hifi/music.

TC

• Gizmo had it pretty much right

The problem is not technological, it is social. One must convince highly technology-ignorant consumers that your magic box is more magical than the other guy's magic box. Motivation is everyting, and it often involves motivation of upper-middle-class "lifestyle slaves". Distortion figures don't mean very much to those types....but when Harvey Rosenberg or Dan Schmalle raves (raved) about something, people respond to the emotional appeal. Nevermind the distortion figures or the frequency response.
This is often NOT a good thing. It invites scammery and decreasing technical standards.

....excuse me for pointing this out, but the Japanese also seem to have a strong taste for comic books featuring child molestation, amputee rape, and brutal bloody violence against women. It's perfectly legal to publish that stuff in Japan. If you ever want to see some, try the visual-art archive on Portal of Evil. The sickest websites listed therein all seem to be Japanese.

If Japan=obsession with quality, then it must extend to everything they do--including tentacle rape cartoons.....thanks but no thanks....

• http://www.portalofevil.com/archives/ArtVisual_Arts.html

Speaking of alliances, let me shill one a little bit. FSAudio is a sponsor here and I think they may be on to something for the entry level market. Check out the little ultralinear amp kit that Heart (Netherlands) is making. They'll loan you one for review just for the asking. I've got one now, and it sounds like a pretty neat amp, especially for the price.

Disclaimer: My only relationship to FSAudio is that we are both sponsors of AudioRoundTable.com.

As for exotic, all those amps they build were originally designed right here in the good old U.S. of A. Unless we adopt new approaches and outlooks we stand to become mired in the same old same old. Look on the personal websites of many Japanese audiophiles; horn loaded and push-pull. And what speakers are cherished over there? JBL, ALTEC, probably PI.

My alliances are here with the people I know and know me but it doesn't do to place your head in the sand and ignore what others around the world are exploring in this pursuit, thats the short path to stagnation. The point of any hobby I think is to become deeply involved and knowledge is universal. The difference seems to lie in the approach and that is what is intriqueing.

I think what Eric was trying to say is that he feels some might be seduced by sensationalism and intrigue more than substance. I think his references were sort of an "exclaimation point" to make his case.

I think being lop-sided either way leaves a blind spot. To be so rigid as to care only about the technical description of an item leaves the feel of the item unrealized. I can have the entire CAD layout of an airplane and build it perfectly and still not have the exhillaration of first flight if I never get in and fly it. On the other hand, I can fly a thousand planes and know them like the back of my hand, yet if I am unfamiliar with mathematics and physics and I design one, then my first flight in that plane might very well be my last. So both approaches are valid, and to stubbornly see only one side leaves a desperately blind spot.

I think Eric has had experience with those that chase the subjective view with an almost manic fervor, throwing all objectivity to the wind. That's what I thought he was driving at. Certainly, it can go too far the other way too. That's what I think you were driving at, and it looks like Terry's position too.

Nice thing is that we're just talking about stereo systems here. I'm glad to have some really good sounding gear, and to be able to relax and enjoy it. I'm also glad that we can all talk about them and tinker with them and make 'em even better. Just like nice cars. I like making nice things because I get a lot of joy when they work well.

I pose this question; is there such a thing as intuitive engineering? At some point does the human ability to assign value to intangibles and recognise patterns enter the equation?

My issue is that the Sound Practices gang (and some others, to be fair) tends to holify every fad that comes from MJ magazine as if it were a sermon from the mount. I have heard a lot (A LOT) of single-ended tube amps. Some of them sounded really great, and some of them were abysmal. Some commonplace commercial amps sound excellent, and some lovingly-built homebrew projects sound bad. It's literally all over the map.

And it doens't help to have had conversations with people like MJ's Mac Watanabe and Koichi Hanzawa. They are quite willing to admit that they are disturbed by some of the articles appearing in their own magazine, often things written by their most popular contributors. (Mr. Sakuma is a prime example but not the only one. It's funny, I've never heard Sakuma's amps myself, but people who have heard them often seem to complain--frequently--about how awful they usually sound. And yet, Sakuma is a consummate salesman and cheerleader, and enjoys a considerable worldwide audience.)

Their obsession with old American speakers is another strangeness. I'm sorry, but I just don't think Altec A7s are magical. To me they are (still) just old P A speakers, having really high efficiency and really bad horn-speaker flaws. I've heard some reproductions that were carefully built and set up in a good listening room, with a good SE amp--and still wasn't impressed. The same goes for Klipschorns. Only a damn fool would use K-horns with an average solid-state amp. That is one "classic" speaker that responds really well to a low-power tube amp. But it is still not for everyone--being VERY sensitive to room setup and ambient acoustics. (And let's not even bring up the Japanese obsession with JBL Hartsfields and Paragons....I won't repeat that old joke about burying Eero Saarinen....)

Sorry if I offended, just trying to point out that you can't always trust the members of a given "scene" as if they were infallible. Some aspects of Japanese culture are charming, and some are very, very disturbing to me. And I've often wondered if violent manga bondage cartoons and SE tube amps have some kind of unspoken social relationship or connection. They are both quite "off the wall", compared to the mores of American society. SE amps almost seem alien, from another planet, compared to what the mainstream electronics industry is focused on, in terms of design goals and procedures.

And btw, SE tube amps still aren't a very big part of American high-end audio. The giant push-pull 6550 amps made by Audio Research, VTL, Conrad-Johnson etc. still outsell SE amps by a 10-1 ratio or more. I feel that high-end audio is still more about the unbound ego of the rich and powerful white/asian male, than it is about good sound. That is probably a good socially-responsible reason for the SE-amp movement--less is more, meaning, a simple amp with only one tube doesn't feed the swollen ego. Nothing wrong with that. I'd just like to see more consistency in how it's implemented.

Hopefully that helps?