Home » Audio » Speaker » help spend my money on an array project
help spend my money on an array project [message #61275] Thu, 29 October 2009 17:47 Go to next message
jtwrace is currently offline  jtwrace
Messages: 66
Registered: October 2009
Location: FL
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I built a 3-way speaker using a Foutek 2.0 and Accuton C-79. I was so impressed when I just crossed the mid / tweeter to my subs that I started thinking about building an array of the same. This design would use 20 C-79 with 18 Founteks. With some talking with others and looking at measurements, I'm starting to question my thought. I've looked at the Accuton 220/T11 and then use the Newform Research R30 2x stacked per side.

My concern is that looking at the measuremnents, the 220 just doesn't seem as good as the C-79. I really don't want to loose the "magic" that I had with the C-79. So, what are your thoughts and recommendations? I have also contacted Audio Technology about some custom mids as well.

BTW-my thought is to use my 300w Class Mono Blocks on the mids and use a tube amp on the ribbons. I currently use two aluminum cabinet Rythmik Audio subs with an active Ashly 3.24CL crossover.

Thanks-
Re: help spend my money on an array project [message #61276 is a reply to message #61275] Thu, 29 October 2009 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro
Messages: 403
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Whoa! This is way outta my league. Just the cost of the raw speakers is going to be almost $8000. With that package you will probably want to put together cabinetry for another 2K, so your system will cost you $10K, not including your labor.

If it doesn't sound totally unreal, I can't imagine what would.

I hope that you are under the age of 40, since anyone over that doesn't have enough ear left to hear the difference.

Marlboro
Re: help spend my money on an array project [message #61278 is a reply to message #61276] Fri, 30 October 2009 09:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jtwrace is currently offline  jtwrace
Messages: 66
Registered: October 2009
Location: FL
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Marlboro wrote on Thu, 29 October 2009 22:26
Whoa! This is way outta my league. Just the cost of the raw speakers is going to be almost $8000. With that package you will probably want to put together cabinetry for another 2K, so your system will cost you $10K, not including your labor.

If it doesn't sound totally unreal, I can't imagine what would.

I hope that you are under the age of 40, since anyone over that doesn't have enough ear left to hear the difference.

Marlboro


LOL. I thought nothing was out of your league after reading many of your posts. Smile

Yes, but the money is not the primary concern...the sound is. I just would hate to put the effort into this project and wish I used a different driver. I also understand that many will have different ideas / designs but am I OK with using 20 C-79's with the Founteks?

A WOOFER ARRAY? [message #61283 is a reply to message #61278] Fri, 30 October 2009 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro
Messages: 403
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Money...!!

I was constrained in my design primarily by money. I couldn't spend more than $1500 total including all amplification, electronic crossovers, all speakers and all materials. My labor was free. I had one amp to start and two 12 inch 15 xmax poly prop woofers that currently list for $139 each. I had to buy everything else.

I bought each speaker first in one and listened critically to the extent that a then set of 54 year old ears can do. I spent a lot of time on ebay looking for the right amps and trying and sometimes failing to get what I wanted. I read every piece of information that I could find that pertained to any design part of the system, and then I put it all together on paper first. And then I started building.

It took me nearly 18 months to design, 4 months to buy the amps and crossovers on ebay, and an additional 6 months of spare time to build the system. From its inception to siting and listening it took more than two years.

But your material look like a splitting of hairs that I simply couldn't do. It looks like it should be TAKE ON ALL COMERS no matter what.

I wonder if you are doing this, and money is not an issue, that you don't make it a 4 way and include a line woofers to handle the 40-200hz range. I've been thinking of doing that myself to handle the 40-155 range which is currently handled by my dual 12 inch woofers. I would then use my 12 inchers for only very low bass and explosions in the range from 16-40. They would be true stereo subs.

Marlboro
Re: help spend my money on an array project [message #61286 is a reply to message #61278] Fri, 30 October 2009 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Griffin is currently offline  Jim Griffin
Messages: 232
Registered: May 2009
Master
jtwrace,

With your desire to use these specific drivers and such why haven't you contacted your fellow NC speaker professional aka Rick Craig of Selah Audio? He has the experience you need to create arrays commeasurate with the performance of these drivers and their cost. This should not be a DIY kind of job for these drivers but rather your opportunity to achieve something special.

Jim
Re: help spend my money on an array project [message #61287 is a reply to message #61286] Fri, 30 October 2009 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jtwrace is currently offline  jtwrace
Messages: 66
Registered: October 2009
Location: FL
Viscount
Jim Griffin wrote on Fri, 30 October 2009 19:33
jtwrace,

With your desire to use these specific drivers and such why haven't you contacted your fellow NC speaker professional aka Rick Craig of Selah Audio? He has the experience you need to create arrays commeasurate with the performance of these drivers and their cost. This should not be a DIY kind of job for these drivers but rather your opportunity to achieve something special.

Jim


I have...meeting up soon.
Tangent.... [message #61291 is a reply to message #61275] Sat, 31 October 2009 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro
Messages: 403
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
JTW,

Lets assume that you move on to finding some professional builder to put this together for you, to spend your money for you.

But back to us who would never hire an independent builder because we accurately or fallaciously believe that we can always do it better ourselves for less money(I had a friend one time, best man at my wedding, who married an heiress, and fell into the trap that since he had all the money he could ever want that hiring someone would be easier and better than doing things himself---sometimes true, sometimes not.)

I'm wondering about the Accuton C-79's? Is there any place where an independent evaluation of these speakers has been made? They are essentially three inch domes made of ceramic, and from the data provided by them it seems that they have a quite a bit of ringing problem, and don't go lower than 400hz. I wonder if one might be better off with using Dayton RS-52. In a line array you could cross them at 450 and cut their flanges to cross pretty high.
They have an exceptionally flat frequency response, very very low distortion, and very little ringing at all.

Additionally, while there has been plenty of discussion here about the benefits of the fountek 2.0's by people who listen to them and certain people's preferences for them, I still wonder if using them when you have to cross below 4Khz where their performance drops, it might be preferable to use Bohlender Graebener Neo3 PDR's which are almost half the price, and have way better specs.

Additionally in using either the Accuton's or the RS52's, you will need a 4-way to make it viable. You need an array to cover the range from about 60hz to 500hz, with a set of stereo subwoofers covering the range of 16-60 or so. I'd go with the RSS210's, but if you can deal with a dropping frequency response below 80hz a line array of Visaton AL200's has a better distortion figure.

My problem is believing the data reports of manufacturers. I need some kind of independent testing to verify what they say. All manufacturers, whether of raw speakers or of completed speakers, tend to gloss over their deficiencies, and stress their strengths. Its part of marketing. So one of the benefits of being a DIYer is that you can sift through the marketing and find speakers that are the best, and the best is not always the highest price.

Marlboro
Re: Tangent.... [message #61293 is a reply to message #61291] Sat, 31 October 2009 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jtwrace is currently offline  jtwrace
Messages: 66
Registered: October 2009
Location: FL
Viscount
Marlboro wrote on Sat, 31 October 2009 11:27
JTW,

Lets assume that you move on to finding some professional builder to put this together for you, to spend your money for you.

But back to us who would never hire an independent builder because we accurately or fallaciously believe that we can always do it better ourselves for less money(I had a friend one time, best man at my wedding, who married an heiress, and fell into the trap that since he had all the money he could ever want that hiring someone would be easier and better than doing things himself---sometimes true, sometimes not.)

I'm wondering about the Accuton C-79's? Is there any place where an independent evaluation of these speakers has been made? They are essentially three inch domes made of ceramic, and from the data provided by them it seems that they have a quite a bit of ringing problem, and don't go lower than 400hz. I wonder if one might be better off with using Dayton RS-52. In a line array you could cross them at 450 and cut their flanges to cross pretty high.
They have an exceptionally flat frequency response, very very low distortion, and very little ringing at all.

Additionally, while there has been plenty of discussion here about the benefits of the fountek 2.0's by people who listen to them and certain people's preferences for them, I still wonder if using them when you have to cross below 4Khz where their performance drops, it might be preferable to use Bohlender Graebener Neo3 PDR's which are almost half the price, and have way better specs.

Additionally in using either the Accuton's or the RS52's, you will need a 4-way to make it viable. You need an array to cover the range from about 60hz to 500hz, with a set of stereo subwoofers covering the range of 16-60 or so. I'd go with the RSS210's, but if you can deal with a dropping frequency response below 80hz a line array of Visaton AL200's has a better distortion figure.

My problem is believing the data reports of manufacturers. I need some kind of independent testing to verify what they say. All manufacturers, whether of raw speakers or of completed speakers, tend to gloss over their deficiencies, and stress their strengths. Its part of marketing. So one of the benefits of being a DIYer is that you can sift through the marketing and find speakers that are the best, and the best is not always the highest price.

Marlboro


Thanks for your advice...you obviously haven't read my first post and the first sentence. I would say that you shouldn't judge anyones ability via a forum. You might be surprised.

Thanks for your help!
Re: Tangent.... [message #61294 is a reply to message #61293] Sat, 31 October 2009 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro
Messages: 403
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
OH... yes I did.

You built a system using just one of them each for each speaker, and loved them. And you wondered if maybe used in a line array they might be wonderful. And i don't deny they might be.

My only comment is that I've never had the luxury(alright, shortly after an inheritance I did before it all went into college educations for my kids) of spending whatever I wanted. But even if I do in the future, I always get a big kick out of doing things for less expensive and proving that they are every bit as good as if I'd paid big bucks.

Over my 60 years, I've always found that there is an alternative that costs less and works every bit as good as the one that costs more.

Its a personality flaw I suspect.

I also didn't want to put a crossover between 100 and 3000, but c-to-c limits kind of prevent that in line arrays so, i went with 155hz - 2500hz, which was as close as i could get.

Razz
Re: help spend my money on an array project [message #61295 is a reply to message #61286] Sat, 31 October 2009 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
jtwrace is currently offline  jtwrace
Messages: 66
Registered: October 2009
Location: FL
Viscount
Jim Griffin wrote on Fri, 30 October 2009 19:33
jtwrace,

With your desire to use these specific drivers and such why haven't you contacted your fellow NC speaker professional aka Rick Craig of Selah Audio? He has the experience you need to create arrays commeasurate with the performance of these drivers and their cost. This should not be a DIY kind of job for these drivers but rather your opportunity to achieve something special.

Jim


Jim

I have contacted Rick and will be visiting soon. I really want to build these myself though. I do want to thank you for your white paper. I have found it to be a great source for some of my questions.
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