Home » Audio » Speaker » First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array
First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60536] Thu, 06 August 2009 21:04 Go to next message
Villain3g is currently offline  Villain3g
Messages: 22
Registered: August 2009
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When I finally decided to build a pair of speakers, I knew that I wanted to do something different. I also wanted it to be relatively "simple". The first thought was a single full range driver in a transmission line but they look like conventional floorstanding speakers. My second thought would be a line array but they require a mixer to combat the combing effect. This is apparently due to each driver from center being a little further from the listener's ear. So I figured, why not have every driver equidistant from your ear. This would create a pretty nice listening experience for focal point.

Keeping cost and final impedance as factors, I went with 16 peerless 2" full range drivers per channel. I arranged them in a curved line array with a radius of 12 ft. I used 3/4" mdf for the sides and internal bracing. Again for cost, I used hardboard for the curved front and back. I wired it up in a configuration to end up with 4ohms. Attached are some pictures.

Originally I was listening to them in a larger room. About 25' wide by 14' deep. In that room they were placed wider apart and I was sitting at the designed height. At first they sounded messy but as I listened longer the speakers started to fill the range. After they had broken in, I was surprised at how deep they were going. I'm not up with all speaker terminology but their presence seemed broad and quite realistic. I tested the speakers with a variety of music. They excelled with acoustic guitar, vocal, and smooth jazz. Where they seemed to fall off is with electric guitar as in heavy metal. The distortion in the guitar is muddled. Maybe I need an equalizer for the different types of music.

Unfortunately I have to move them to my bedroom. They don't have the same presence but its still ok. While in my room played some test tracks through them. I was surprised to hear sound all the way down to 30hz. Now I don't have any instrumentation to measure the drop-off, but I'd say it was usable down to 40hz.

My next step is to stiffen the enclosure. Any advise from the seasoned veterans would be much appreciated. I plan on doubling the wall thickness to two layers of 3/4" mdf. For the curved baffles I want to use two layers of 1/2" mdf. I think it will bend enough. Flush mounting the drivers and back chamfering the baffle is on the list as well. I'll also round over the edges of the cabinet.

If all goes well with that, I want to incorporate a diy powered sub somewhere in the equation. Either one under a center channel or one under each the left and right speakers.

Quite the lengthy first post. Mostly filled with noobish comments but hopefully you enjoyed it and have some input on the topic. If anything they look sexy...

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/villain3g/Speakers/2009086.jpg

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/villain3g/Speakers/2009088.jpg

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/villain3g/Speakers/2009090.jpg

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/villain3g/Speakers/2009089.jpg
Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60545 is a reply to message #60536] Fri, 07 August 2009 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric J is currently offline  Eric J
Messages: 71
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Did you read Dr. Griffin's white paper before you built the speakers? Just wondering.

I was also wondering if you notices a lack of upper frequencies without the addition of a tweeter in the array.

Eric
Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60573 is a reply to message #60545] Mon, 10 August 2009 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Villain3g is currently offline  Villain3g
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I peeked at the white paper but it was way over my head. So I just dove in head first. These speakers are suprisingly both bright and deep. And I think they will improve with a thicker front and back pannel.
Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60579 is a reply to message #60573] Tue, 11 August 2009 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric J is currently offline  Eric J
Messages: 71
Registered: May 2009
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I'm glad you like the result.

But.... anyone designing line arrays at this current time who fails to follow Jim Griffins ground breaking research parameters, is returning to a time when it was hit or miss. Small far field listening Speakers are pretty forgiving; Line arrays are not forgiving at all, and its easy to produce a set that in comparison to even forgiving 2 way or 3 way far field listening are minimal for all the work involved.

But again, I'm glad you like the result. It took me awhile to digest Jim Griffin's paper, but I followed it to the letter and my system covers all the bases. Although building time did exceed a year of Saturday mornings especially with the design of 32 separate outside air separated 4 lb/sq in fiberglas stuffed 23.5 inch x 6 inch tubes for each midrange speaker, as well as cutting the flanges in 60 Dayton 3/4 inch dome ND20A's so that the comb filter distortion didn't go lower than 16khz, and the c-to-c distance was no more than .80 inch.

To each his own.

Eric J
Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60590 is a reply to message #60579] Wed, 12 August 2009 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Villain3g is currently offline  Villain3g
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I remember the white paper only dealing with flat baffel line arrays. Is there any documemts written on focussed line arrays?
Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60591 is a reply to message #60590] Wed, 12 August 2009 11:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric J is currently offline  Eric J
Messages: 71
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Focused line arrays are not usually used in home settings.

Since I have a flat baffle line array which I have alluded to in the past, the concerns that you spoke about are completely un-noticable if they are there at all. But all the rest of the information on how to build line arrays are the same and should be followed.

You usually see focused arrays in arenas where the people aren't able to be listening in the nearfield such as a church or a stadium. In these instances, it is necessary to focus the array to keep the listeners getting the full music. If you are listening from 10 feet away you are in the near field, and the time delay issues are compensated for in your brain, if they exist at all.

Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60643 is a reply to message #60591] Fri, 21 August 2009 08:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Griffin is currently offline  Jim Griffin
Messages: 232
Registered: May 2009
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Just a short note on curved arrays.

Concave (curves inward) arrays limit the sweet spot listening area and in fact become one or two rows of listeners deep if your are close to their focal point. In the limit you have a one listener in the sweet spot. In reality the drivers are directed to overlap essentially the same volume in space so you attain none of the advantages of near field arrays that I have stated.

On the other hand concave curved arrays (curved outward typically in a J-shaped curve) are widely used in the pro sound field. The goal for the convex curved arrays is to blend their near and far fields so that the sound quality is improved for additional listeners within the audience.

Bottom line is that concave arrays limit the listening space while convex arrays expand the listening space.
Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60650 is a reply to message #60536] Fri, 21 August 2009 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Villain3g is currently offline  Villain3g
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Registered: August 2009
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Heres an update. To fill in the low end I built a pair of powered subs to double as speaker stands. Now I can get back to design of the arrays. I'll whip up some strait enclosures to compare.

index.php?t=getfile&id=52&private=0
index.php?t=getfile&id=53&private=0

Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60653 is a reply to message #60650] Sat, 22 August 2009 00:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
darkmoebius2 is currently offline  darkmoebius2
Messages: 37
Registered: August 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Baron
Villain3g wrote on Fri, 21 August 2009 13:58
I'll whip up some strait enclosures to compare.

Just follow Dr Griffin's white paper and they'll turn out great. Since you are using fullrange drivers which will be covering HF's all the way up, too, the driver flanges should probably be as close to touching each other as possible
Quote:
Near field. Urban, et al [1] derives a more restrictive criterion of no more than a half wavelength separation between drivers at their highest operating frequency...Wavelength is equal to the velocity of sound (344 m/s or 1130 feet/s) divided by the frequency.

For the tweeter line very close center-to-center spacing is difficult to attain as very small circular drivers would be necessitated for either the one wavelength or especially the half wavelength criteria. Consider operation to 20 kHz where one wavelength is 17.2 mm (0.68") and a half wavelength is only 8.6 mm (0.34"). Without regard to their surrounding flanges, dome tweeters are available in 25 mm (1"), 19 mm (0.75") and 13 mm (0.5") diameters. Hence, with any mounting flange allowance at all, the one or half wavelength c-t-c criteria are very difficult--if not impossible--to satisfy at 20 kHz. But, if we relax the c-t-c criterion, more secondary lobes would appear in the 10 to 20 kHz frequency range. Fortunately, in this octave the ear is less sensitive (per Fletcher-Munson curves) so any secondary lobes likely would be less audible to the listener. Thus, if one wavelength spacing at 10 kHz is adopted as a compromise, then tweeter spacing would need to be 34.4 mm (1.35") c-t-c apart. While more off axis secondary lobes would be generated in the far field, small flange tweeters are available to meet this dimension. The tradeoff is possible sound degradation from comb lines near 20 kHz.

Experts out there, do I have that right?
Re: First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array [message #60654 is a reply to message #60653] Sat, 22 August 2009 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Eric J is currently offline  Eric J
Messages: 71
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
In my opinion, you are pretty much limited to 3/4 inch dome tweeters by the combination of frequency range covered and the need to avoid comb filter distortion.

There is only one dome tweeter on the market that actually allows cutting the flanges to make the distortion occur below between 15K-16Khz, and that is the Dayton Neo 20A. I did that with mine and got the C-to-c distance at just slightly over the actual with of the speaker itself, or .80 inches. If you use a 1/2 have inch dome, you can't go low enough in the crossover to be usable. if you use above a .75 dome, you will have comb distortion kicking in at actually hearable levels. Most people's perception of sounds drops substantially above 14000hz, so for most people the comb filter distortion is un-hearable IF YOU HAVE LIMITED IT TO BE ABOVE 15KHZ.
You are also required to use midranges no bigger than about 4 inches to be assured of not getting nasty CFD in the midrange.

If you want to avoid any possibility of hearing it, AND reduce your massive work of cutting the flanges on the neo's you must use ribbon or planar speakers. However, these speakers are far from flat in their frequency responses unless you are willing to buy those that exceed $75 each. For me this raised the price to unacceptable levels. I was building the best I could for under $1500---complete including electronic crossover, 3 amps and a preamplifier for a full tri-amped system.

So.... you either use Dayton Neo 3/4 inch domes and cut each flange and then put them together tightly, or you use a ribbon. Considering the effort I had to go into to cut each flange, I cannot imagine any manufacturer doing that.

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