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Man I hate to do this... [message #58592] Mon, 12 June 2006 11:21 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Bureau Of Justice Handgun Figures for !996
According to Victim Survey and the NCVS 25% of all rapes sexual assualt robbery and aggravated assualt faced an offender armed with a handgun.
83% of all gun related crimes involved a handgun
The FBI's supplemental Homocide reports show 57% of all murders reported were committed with handguns.3% with rifles 5% with shotguns.

I can't continue because they are dedicated to twisting these types of statistics and presenting them as if they were real. They leave out important data that you can't tell unless you do voluminous research and then they tie you up with an endless series of deconstructions of every word and sentence you write. When you return with a truthfull stat to contradict one of their points they search out a weakness in one of your sentences and focus on some trivial meaningless stat while disregarding the real picture. The process has a name; it's called "dissembling".
Like the creationists do; presuming that science is undecided on Darwin then pushing stats that are essentially meaningless but take up all your time to refute. Then they find some sympathetic science proffessor to qoute from and you never get to find out that that guys theories and papers have no weight in the scientific community.
It's a con game and a shell game and it isn't worth spending the hours they spend doing; disregarding the litter of the dead from gunshot wounds. I suggest you speak to an emergency room trauma nurse in a big city; thats real information.

Re: Man I hate to do this... [message #58593 is a reply to message #58592] Mon, 12 June 2006 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
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There's no need for research is there? Of course all those number are true, the Emergancy room people have camp side stories about gunshot vistoms till the end of time.

You cant take away all the hand cuns from criminals. You cant take away the long guns, which will take the place of the short gun.
to get back to your 2 points about gun control. The countries with gun control dont have less gunshots because there are less guns. I believe it is a different way of thinking in Europe and other countires. There is different thinking going on in those societies. It's not the US. the trash that litters our streets selling drugs, robbing and killing is the problem. For your second point strong laws are great if someone will make them. Too many mamby pambies in office these days. I'll buy you dinner when laws like you suggest get passed.
What about the middle east, a place where the presance of a young lad perhaps 12 or 14 is toating about an AK? Lots of them. most everyone is armed. Lots of violance too. I dont think theres too many hand guns and if you take away the assault weapons they would use a muzzle loader. take away that and those folks would be carrying a bat with a rusty nail. What about the Romans? often prtraid as bloody society. true or not there's a lot knifing in the movies. no guns, they all carried swords and killed each other on a whim if so felt.
It's the people, not the weapons.

Re: Man I hate to do this... [message #58597 is a reply to message #58592] Mon, 12 June 2006 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
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Location: NE Arkansas
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Thanks for the stats. They are appreciated.

I think Bill said it best, "What's the percentage of the gun killings that are done with registered handguns, vs, an illegal weapon?" I bet it's close to zero


Re: Man I hate to do this... [message #58598 is a reply to message #58593] Mon, 12 June 2006 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Weelp; we talked over the premise of too many guns mean more crime. We discussed the figures and what they mean. So let me say this; your Middle East analogy is perfect; to me that means look, here we have another society where everyone is armed and what do we see? Lots of killing.
Can it be that the more guns =the more deaths? Is it possible that is a valid statement based upon the evidence of all the heavily armed societies have all the highest death rates?
The laws; the gun lobby is very strong and their piggy-banks overflow with cash. Cash=power in Washington. What to do? Keep pushing; there is ample evidence that persistance wins out in the long run. Vote the initiatives write your representatives and donate to gun law responsibilty groups. Thats what we can do as responsible citizens.

Re: Man I hate to do this... [message #58599 is a reply to message #58597] Mon, 12 June 2006 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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But what is the signifigance of that fact? If there were less guns as we suggest there be; than there would be less to go around. That means less for everybody.

Are you giving up yours? (nt) [message #58600 is a reply to message #58599] Mon, 12 June 2006 13:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
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Unarmed populations [message #58601 is a reply to message #58598] Mon, 12 June 2006 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Then there of course are the other examples of Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. Those were probably the worst possible environments, yet they had strictly enforced gun laws.

Seems to me that genocide is usually suffered by populations that have had strict gun laws imposed upon them. It's a little harder to murder those that are as armed as you are. I think that is what was meant by having an "armed militia".

Surely, you don't want lawlessness, and that's what we see in the troubled regions of the world. But I don't think going too far the other way and being overly intrusive is good either. Punish a man for what he does, not what you think he might do. That's what I think is the best policy.


Re: Are you giving up yours? (nt) [message #58602 is a reply to message #58600] Mon, 12 June 2006 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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I have two rifles. I think maybe that is not clear. If you re-read the posts we will see that it is handguns that I am concerned with. I don't think I have given the impression that rifles whose primary use is for hunting game has ever been my concern. And if you look at the FBI stats you see that only 3% of gunrelated killings involved a rifle.
There is no point that I can see in abusing a priveledge; that includes the priviledge to direct how other citizens behave. I believe that as a citizen I have the right to be as safe from anothers behaviour as a reasonable person would expect. I don't see where I should have any right to dictate to anyone an unreasonable restriction.
So; rifles have a purpose, they are easily sighted, hard to conceal. They don't work well up close where the bad guys live. I would think that it is fair for people to own them.
The second amendment is not to be taken lightly. A rifle like the rifles our forbears owned fits the description in my eyes of arms as stated in the Constitution. You have to draw a line I know you believe that. People can't walk around with any weapon on earth just because the colonists wrote that into the rules; it has also to be considered a reasonable interpretation.
The people who group together to fight any ban on any weapon are just shortsighted or worse.

Re: Unarmed populations [message #58603 is a reply to message #58601] Mon, 12 June 2006 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
Tough to reply to this. Apples and oranges is what comes to mind; meaning no disrespect.
Regarding Germany; they always had strict gun laws. If you are saying that the concentration camp victims would have had a chance look at the history. There were several uprisings accomplished by small arms partisans and isolated groups. They gave up; because the Germans slaughtered whole villages if even one person fought back. It doesn't work in modern society.
To address your point I would mention the Afghans; who have successfully defeated or delayed modern armies using small arms for the most part. But we know the terrain and the infighting amongst the political forces governing the situation is really how they can be successfull.
But I digress; The largest genocide in our time occured in Rwanda and was primarily accomplished with machetes. If they all had handguns it would have been much worse.
I don't see this issue as a reactive response. We see a problem; the problem is severe and very costly in terms of life as well as in terms of medical resources required to treat victims who might be paralysed or something as grevious. We see innocent children dead as a result of mistakes or worse. We have to act. It is reasonable as a society to say; hey; why do we need these pistols? Or machine guns that are so damaging to our society. Well; there is no reasonable answer. Self-defense? A myth. So we ban them as reasonable people. We allow rifles and shotguns even though they too are harmfull because they have a purpose and it is fair to allow them. You can't legislate life a hundred per cent safe; but you do have a responsibility to address the obvious dangers.

Re: Unarmed populations [message #58606 is a reply to message #58603] Mon, 12 June 2006 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Registered: January 2001
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Well, if you think about it, America was founded by reactionaries fighting what they thought were intrusive laws from an unreasonable government. As it turned out, our founding fathers are seen as heroes. But had it turned out differently, they might have been seen as traitorous bloodthirsty criminals. The Redcoats would have definitely said Americans were zealous rebels that shouldn't have guns.


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