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Re: Don't think guns save lives [message #58590 is a reply to message #58575] Mon, 12 June 2006 09:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DaveLoneRanger is currently offline  DaveLoneRanger
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
I don't think you quite understand.

You said:
||"IMO - "average" gun owner in the long run has much more chance to shoot himself (accidentaly or suicide),||

If you read those statistics, you find that the unintentional shootings numbered 730. Since gun deaths account for .65% of deaths in the United States, 730 is 2% of that .65%. In other words, 2% of .65% is 1.3 × 10 to the -4 power, or 0.00013% of all deaths in America.

For argument's sake, let's say Gary Kleck's numbers are rediculously inflated. The numbers really aren't nearly so big as he says. Subtract a million from that number. So now there are only 1,500,000 uses of firearms to save life and limb. Versus accidents totallying 30,000? Dividing it out, this would mean that there are fifty defensive uses of guns for every one unintentional death. 50:1. I'm sure we could find that just as many accidental deaths occur by automobile versus the number of cars used safely. You didn't answer that argument from my previous post.

You wrote:
||The interpretation of this statistic isn`t simple, and many things are missing. But, subjectively - many of those "self defence" situations aren`t "clear". For example, in many countries incident where shop owner shot dead, say, 20 years old junkie who tried to rob the store - this is not self defence on the court...
Yeah, the clerc had the gun behind the desk and murdered the kid for $100...but is it the right path for the society and for the individual persons?||

I must respectfully ask, how in the world do you know this? What is missing? Which SPECIFIC examples of self defense are not "clear"? What about them makes them unclear?

You wrote:
||Anyway, number of the death from firearms use is scarying high, even for the big country like US - 30 000 dead per year is more then in many wars!||

And our crime rate is the envy of the world.

Re: Don't think guns save lives [message #58591 is a reply to message #58579] Mon, 12 June 2006 10:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GarMan is currently offline  GarMan
Messages: 960
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
Bill, if your message is "Guns don't kill, people do", I can't disagreement with that. Guns are just a tools used by killers. But you can't ignore how guns have created a different type of killer and killings not seen with other "tools".

When I was a kid in school, most fights were bare fist. On special occasions, a knife or two might come out and at worst, you end up with some knife wounds and a bloody mess. To kill someone with a knife, you really have to mean it. You have to roll up your sleeve, get in there down and dirty, and have the persistent to finish the job. Usually, after the first cut and the sight of blood and screams, the knife-holder backs off. But guns are oh so efficient; you don't get a chance to change you mind.

I find the argument of "guns don't kill, people do" to be correct but flawed. Take that logic to the extreme of "WMD's don't kill, people do". No need for war. Just train Iraq on responsible use of WMD instead.

Gar.

Your math is wrong! [message #58595 is a reply to message #58590] Mon, 12 June 2006 12:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
From CDC/NVSS deaths data for 2003. in US:

-number of deaths (all cases) = 2.448.288 or 100%

-death by accidents (unitentional) = 109.277 or 4,46%

-deaths by firearms = 30.136, or 16.907 suicides, 11.920 homicides, accidents 730, interventions 232+347. This 30.136 deaths from firearms are actually 30.136 / 2.448.288 = 0,0123 or 1,23% of all deaths in USA - NOT 0,65 %!
Then, 730 deadly accidents with arms is 730 / 2.448.288 = 0,0003 or 0,03% of all deaths, NOT 0,00013%! Yes, someone cynical can say that 0,03% is a small number, but we`re talking about 730 dead people too many, or two per day.

-interestingly, death by firearms is 30.136 / 109.277 = 0,2758 or about 27,6% of all various accidents, and homicides 11.920/109.277 = 0,109 or 10,9% of all "accident" deaths, and 11.920 / 2.448.288 = 0,0049 or about 0,5% of all deaths in US!



Re: Don't think guns save lives [message #58596 is a reply to message #58591] Mon, 12 June 2006 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Gar, Your right, there is a new killer out there today. I still protest 100 years ago more kids had guns or very open access to them. they were not all angry and pissed off, like todays kids.
Look, I hate to see packs of kids running around with guns. I hate to see robberies at gun point, girls raped at gun point and doestic violence, getting shot over a cold dinner, warm beer or lovers triangle. Kids being killed by stray bullet or other kids is far beyound even tragidy. I cant even imagine being a parent in that case. I had a friend shot by another kid when I was twelve. I dont see how in the long run taking away hand guns will change it.

Whats the percentage of the gun killings that are done with registered handguns, vs, an illegal weapon? You can make it harder to get a gun but not impossible. People wont stop shooting each other until; they dont want to shoot each other.

WMD ? "what good is a secret weapon, if you keep it a secret?"

Re: Your math is wrong! [message #58605 is a reply to message #58595] Mon, 12 June 2006 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Hah; I was waiting for you to jump on that. His supposed data is all cockeyed. 1.5 million what??? You did a great job. I don't think we'll be seeing him around anymore.
They all fold under pressure.

Re: Your math is wrong! [message #58613 is a reply to message #58605] Tue, 13 June 2006 04:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DaveLoneRanger is currently offline  DaveLoneRanger
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2009
Esquire
So, say, if I am still around, this would disprove your idea that "they" all fold under pressure?

Off to work, be back later to answer the math question. I note that none of you are giving a response to the logic and reasoning of why we should ban guns but not all of the other objects which can be used constructively, but which also cause far more deaths than guns do. Baseball bats and cars can be used as murder weapons, impliments of suicide, or to cause unintentional injury. Did'ja have an answer for that, Bucko?

Re: Your math is wrong! [message #58616 is a reply to message #58613] Tue, 13 June 2006 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
Well, your opinions based on "crative" and wrong use of statistic is your right, and I doubt that everything I (or MB) can say will change this. Personally, I don`t like discussions with "arguments" like this...
If we, say, divide gunshot victims with number of the people on this World, we `d get a very low %...is this a argument?

However, to answer to the "cars" analogy...this area (traffic) must be covered with various laws - you must have driver exam, a licence, fasten the safety belt, respect the speed limits, no alcohol, and various other regulations. Of course, IMO - similar laws/limitations must exist about possessing, carying, using, etc. of various firearms.
But, I noticed that this is a hot right/left political question in USA, and I can`t be a part of this. I only can say my opinion that I hate to see the statistic where`s more then 30.000 dead from guns ab(use) every year. I live in the town big like that...

Re: Your math is wrong! [message #58617 is a reply to message #58613] Tue, 13 June 2006 06:09 Go to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
The "Alternative Weapons" theory is facile and has no merritt. It begs the question why baseball games have low murder rates. Since there are so many "weapons" in use. We addressed that already in an earlier post.
We also addressed the data mining methods of fanatics. Unreliable and impossible to track. The supposed "Experts" with no standing in the scientific community. The endless deconstruction of meaningless data while the real point is not addressed. No premise; no conclusion. Logical syllogism.


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