you wrote:

::::I would be really impressed to see you create a brand name, maybe Magnetone or something like that. Or maybe that's too close to Mike's name, just throwing something out there.::::

yeah... it would be nice to see him ride on and create his own coattails than than freeriding on someone else's coattails.

And maybe if he ever does go into biz or create something of value on his own he will begin to appreciate and cherish the notions of property and ownership and etc.

Take an amp manufacturer who's whole line is the copying of, reverse engineering of circuits that were created and designed by another company and marketed as a complete finished product. How much rep would you build by simply copying other people's work and then selling on the basis of.... well... mine is a copy of a Audio Research amp but we have it made for less money...

you'll get some sales but ultimately... not much stability in the marketplace is my guess.

best to develop products that are truly and uniquely your own and take the long road... and build up a rep for yourself on YOUR merits not on the merits of another product who you pirated your product from.

:::Have custom winds made that are possibly compatible with early popular transformers, but superior.::::

And you don't need to pirate say an Electra Print trans, or a One Electron trans, or a Peerless trans to do this...

as just one quick example... the original Williamson output transformer design is in the public domain. The complete blueprint had been published over fifty years ago... and the intent (as far as I can divine) was to put this design in the public domain.

It was a 10K CT output trans complete with a materials list and all the winding information including wire sizes, number of turns, insulations, and even told ya (if I recall right) what size lead wires to use.

From this blueprint (which is actually a pretty decent design) you could easily (with a bit of knowledge) scale this up or down impedance wise to create a 2500 ohm CT primary, a 5,000 ohm CT pri, a 6600 ohm CT pri, a 8000 ohm CT primary...

with a bit more work and understanding of magnetics you could take this same design and use it as a pattern for output transformers at twice the power rating and half the power rating... and again figure out the turns needed and wire sizes needed and isulation spacing to produce your double and half powered designs properly.

and...now... your not ripping off Electra Print, One Electron or Peerless or anyone else...

but it takes a commitment to learning and to doing things well.

I could get fifteen really nice tranneys out of that one public domain design.

Mike

That part you already have down pat. Build brand recognition by using your iron in excellent amps and take 'em to shows. I think that would be excellent. People sure have responded favorably to your amp designs, and I think having your own transformers wound sets you apart and ahead. Sure could be coooool.

This approach has been a big part of the drug companies for years. It cost so much to develope a marketable drug (billions of dollars when averaged over the failures)that the day after its patent expires there is a generic on the market.

You wrote, "That part you already have down pat. Build brand recognition by using your iron in excellent amps and take 'em to shows. I think that would be excellent. People sure have responded favorably to your amp designs, and I think having your own transformers wound sets you apart and ahead. Sure could be coooool."

Well said

......Colin

actually wayne wrote the following passage which you quote;

:::"That part you already have down pat. Build brand recognition by using your iron in excellent amps and take 'em to shows. I think that would be excellent. People sure have responded favorably to your amp designs, and I think having your own transformers wound sets you apart and ahead. Sure could be coooool.":::

Doug has some talent in circuit design... done right doug could probably do well for himself...

Pirating transformer designs say from the likes of a Lundahl, an Electra Print, or a Peerless simply because they do not have a patent--- is not, I suspect, the way to establish yourself as an expert in your field of endeavor. And it carries huge bagloads of bad karma. Some folks might even call it theft.

Learning from designs clearly in public domain is quite possible and free of any and all ethical entanglements. And darn if there are not good ones (public domain designs) out there as you too suggest. And tons of books and articles to learn the basics through if you need help understanding the public domain examples.

And people do start out and build up a business from their own hard work, sweat, learning, experimenting and etc. Dave Slagle is a good example. No formal background (that I know of) in transformers or electronics... he now makes a TVC that people speak well of. And... I'd bet money... he did not pirate a Sowter or an S&B trans or copy another companies' product so that he would have something to sell.

MSL

Dollars to donuts the companies you mentioned did not come up with the Tx designs themselves. Have not done my homework, but a wild-ass guess says I'm 90% right. Is this practice bad karma? Maybe. Theft? That's why God made attorneys.........Colin

If I were to bet (and lord knows how we could really find out)... I'd bet that Jack Elliano does all of his own design work. My hunch is that John from One Electron probably engaged a transformer designer to design his line of tranneys... I'd bet 3:1 odds that he didn't tear down another companies product and copy it. And who else did we have on the list? Lundahl.... surely a ton of design capability in house.

As for myself... when Wayne and I were chatting on the phone... he asked me about the MQ name. And I explained to him that it was intended originally as an umbrella name to hold the designs (from several companies) that we purchased. When SE circuits became popular... contrary to the lore of the golden era.... there were really not any\many existing designs in our archives that we could build from. So we designed our own single endeds... the entire DS and FS series as just two examples.... we're designed in house at MQ. And then sold under the MagneQuest moniker as I did not (even though I had the legal right to) pin the success or failure of these new designs on the coattails of Peerless (which was one brand name that we did own).... they were our fresh new designs so they had to fly or falter on their own without artificial help....

transformer design can be mastered or at least one can acquire a really useful working knowledge of magnetics without resorting to teardowns, reverse engineering or etc.

the public domain designs would be, in my opinion, a great place to start.

msl

If you do wish to continue with your accusations and attempts to impeach my character, there is only your good sense to stop you.

You have clearly misunderstood a few basic motivations of mine as evidenced by your opening paragraph. You engage me by accusing me of theft of an item which cannot be stolen. Do you expect me to react in a friendly fashion? As best I can, that is what I will do.

However, as a warning, should you continue to misrepresent my actions, I do have both ability and motivation to( among other things ) spread the information you so clearly wish to remain secret as widely as is possible. For example to China where these good designs will be devoured and applied in a very widespread fashion. As it stands, simply mentioning the ease with which the information can be attained suggests that it may already be in-progress.

More importantly, as word spreads of the performance attainable with these modern, machine wound copies, the market *WILL* grow. Fortuneately, I am not in the least dependant on what the market decides to do.

As it stands, I will leave you chance to examine your part in this and perhaps change your mind. If not, your own actions are quite clearly documented in the archives of RAT, and reminding the vacuum tube audio world how you are capable of conducting yourself would be pursued as an honored duty. That you are evidently continuing this sort of thing today is a further indictment of your character and what I am most concerned about.

I have retained legal assisitance and it is a resource I will not hesitate to employ. I do hate to warn you of what not to do, but if you don't do it, that will be enough.

So the final request to walk through this and see if we can reach some agreement on coexistance is hereby made and extended to you.
cheers,
Douglas

I can see where a Tx would be hand made and extensively researched before market introduction. I guess I'm just getting old and cynical. Thanks for not pointing that out.....Colin

:::You engage me by accusing me of theft of an item which cannot be stolen.:::

I paid for the Peerless designs. I bought them. They are my property.

:::However, as a warning, should you continue to misrepresent my actions, I do have both ability and motivation to( among other things ) spread the information you so clearly wish to remain secret as widely as is possible. For example to China where these good designs will be devoured and applied in a very widespread fashion. As it stands, simply mentioning the ease with which the information can be attained suggests that it may already be in-progress.:::

there you go with more of your threats. I'm just curious how low you will drop the price to try to get some comers and also how much you are really paying for these knockoffs since the price has come down from $225 a year ago to $86 today.... just the other day they were $100 each (your cost as you stated)... and, if I recall correctly, a few days before that they were being offered at $140 each.

:::I have retained legal assisitance and it is a resource I will not hesitate to employ. I do hate to warn you of what not to do, but if you don't do it, that will be enough.::::

my counsel, his name and address has been previously posted on this forum if you should need to contact him.

::::So the final request to walk through this and see if we can reach some agreement on coexistance is hereby made and extended to you.:::

we can co-exist perfectly well and wholly apart if only you not use my trademark and if you refrain from trading on my good will which includes not pirating our designs.

The problem with piracy is... as you've stated above... your going to or are willing to take these to china to get made... you apparently have no strong commitment to quality. You seem to be more motivated in damaging me or trying to hurt my business than in building good quality transformers. But when these potentially sub standard items are produced, sold, and used... it is the Peerless marque that stands to be hurt by any deficiencies in the construction or performance of the units that you wish to hawk... and that unfairly hurts our business and performance reputation.

As just one tiny example... you mention that the original peerless was made with polyester. Nope. Polyester (mylar) was not even available commercially in 1948 when this design was introduced. This leads me to be very suspect of your tear down if you got this small point incorrect.

Again, take the high road. Look at the Williamson design... which is to the best of my knowledge in the public domain. Or have Heyboer go in their archives and dig up the stuff they did for (I think it was) Fisher years ago and have them adapt their own designs to meet your needs.

leave me and my company alone... don't use us.... don't abuse us.... and we can peacefully co-exist worlds apart without any difficulty.

msl

your sweet.

In mature low margin industries some of the first guys to go are the engineers and technical people. It is happening in the domestic transformer lamination industry. Margins on the commodity grades of lams are so low... that you can't buy a new roll of TP for the outhouse.

If your at liberty to say.... what industry were you in? I love the dynamics of industry... both the technical dynamics and the financial dynamics.

cheers,

msl

My point is that while you may own the paperwork, you do not own the information they contain. If you can offer a reason with proof otherwise, I am quite ready to listen.

I will address your other points later.
cheers,
Douglas