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This report seems to lend weight to your statement; Mr V [message #55087]

Mon, 06 March 2006 12:30

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

I'll just link it but it is a real university study that seems to support your position. The link you provided is a religous based site so I have to take that with a grain of salt. But this one clearly has a favorable opinion of homeschooling.

http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/

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Interesting site... [message #55088 is a reply to message #55087]

Mon, 06 March 2006 13:16

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

Thanks for providing it. Please take note that the link you provided is almost 7 years old. Home schooling has really been taking off in the last few years. So I hear.

Going back and taking another quick look at the link I provided I am not sure I agree that it's a religious site. But even if it were, I don't see how that makes you have to take it with a grain of salt either. However it doesn't really matter as both sites are saying basically the same thing.

One of the interesting things to me, from the site that you provided is that it says that home schooled children perform better than even children that attend private religous schools. This is news to me but not surprising to me.

There are way to many distractions going on at public schools. One on one teaching has to produce better results than 20 or 30 in a class. Especially if that one on one teaching is from one or both of the parents. It's common sense to me. Of course any parent that would choose to take on such a huge responsibility as to home school their children would have to be pretty dedicated to begin with. So I'm sure that has something to do with it as well.

I will be glad to discuss this with you if you want. I just don't want to get into another battle. Not saying you have been combative because you haven't so far. I just don't have the time or energy to get into a huge debate. So as long as things stay civil than it's fine by me.

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Re: Interesting site... [message #55089 is a reply to message #55088]

Mon, 06 March 2006 14:35

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Well; like I said this is one of the most complicated cultural manifests there can be. Unfortuneatly I appeared to be a little too quick on the draw with the Rudner Study. There is a newer and more inclusive study from 2003 that betrays several distinctions not readily apparent with the study I cited.
Evidently part of the problem is the nature of the sample that is represented in that study. One of the big problems that the educational theorists see is the selectivity of the sample. It is apparent that a good part of the sample that shows what level the students attained at each grade is voluntary reportage. Ie when a parent believes their child will not do well on the test; they just don't take it. So the sample consists of many volunteers who obviously were motivated to take the test.
I am looking at some other information regarding participation in the surveys used to acumulate the data that lead to these conclusions.
I am curious.
Let me ask; at what age do the required Math courses begin to utilise sequential math and then algebraic concepts?

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Re: Interesting site... [message #55090 is a reply to message #55089]

Mon, 06 March 2006 15:09

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

You asked:
"at what age do the required Math courses begin to utilise sequential math and then algebraic concepts?"

What required math courses do you speak off?

If you are asking about the Alpha Omega curriculum that I linked to, there are no required math courses. Nothing is required. A parent could teach it in Kindergarten, 12 grade or never. There are no required curriculum for home schooled children. If you are speaking of the public school system I also have no idea. But I will say that the printed requirements for each grade level where I live is total BS. In other words, if you look at the required curriculum that say a 4th grader is supposed to have learned to be promoted, It bares almost no resemblance to what is actually taught in class. If they actually taught a 3rd of it I would be impressed.

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Re: Interesting site... [message #55091 is a reply to message #55090]

Mon, 06 March 2006 16:06

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Thats unusual. How do the kids pass the state tests then?

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Re: Interesting site... [message #55092 is a reply to message #55091]

Mon, 06 March 2006 16:53

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

Not unusual. It's the law. At least where I live.

Home schooled children are not required to take the state tests. It is one of three options. If I choose to have my sons take the state tests then I would find out what's on them and teach my sons what's necessary to do well on them. Frankly I have never seen the state tests but I am sure there is much on it that I wouldn't even bother with teaching my sons. Even if they had no problems. Much of the information is practically useless and will never be used by adults.

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Re: Interesting site... [message #55093 is a reply to message #55092]

Mon, 06 March 2006 17:37

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

See up here; there are a sequence of State Assesment Tests given at specific intervals. Those tests determine where your child will be placed in the curricula. There is a major SAT at 4th grade then 8th grade then there are what is called the Math A and B competency tests given at the 8th or 9th grade depending on where your child is at in the grade levels. There are three levels; Regents/honors and AP or advanced placement. How you score on the standard tests determines whether you will be placed appropriately. Then once that descision is made they request input from the teachers and they take into account your grades previously. If you feel your child belongs in a more challenging course level then you can demand an accounting.
Once you have set the path though then by the ninth grade you are actually taking different classes than those in different levels so it's hard to advance since you haven't had the material.
For example in 8th grade an honors student will take sequential math while an AP student is doing trigonometry and pre-calc.
Anyway thats how it works here; hence my question regarding state tests and how the kids are placed if they are homeschooled. Here everyone must get a state regents diploma to be considered graduated from High School. So you must take the tests; there is no option.
I am not familiar with other systems so thats why I asked.
I see they do some pretty good work in the schools compared to when I went to HS. They are much more educated and have way more material to cover than I ever did until my second year of college.
As of now in the tenth grade I could not teach my son the tests; much of it's beyond my knowledge. I would like to see some more challenging lit work; some of the English required reading is kind of simple, but they do some good works; Shakespere and Hemmingway and Steinbeck.
That was one of the points they make regarding the stats for homeschooled children. That there is a huge drop-off in results from 4th to 10th grade, something like 80% of the kids homeschooled at 8 yrs old are no longer represented at 15 yrs old. That is a stat they can't account for. Where do they go?

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Re: Interesting site... [message #55098 is a reply to message #55093]

Wed, 08 March 2006 07:02

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

You asked:
"That was one of the points they make regarding the stats for homeschooled children. That there is a huge drop-off in results from 4th to 10th grade, something like 80% of the kids homeschooled at 8 yrs old are no longer represented at 15 yrs old. That is a stat they can't account for. Where do they go?"

If I am understanding your question, I would imagine that many parents feel comfortable home schooling when their children are younger but not when they get into the higher grades. Coupled with the fact that it's very tiring to home school for long periods of time. So I think many children that were home schooled when they are young are put back into the public school when they get older. Also many parents want their children to get an actual high school diploma. So they put the kids back into public school sometime when the kids reach high school. We may do the same. Haven't given it enough thought yet.

Hope that answers your question.

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Re: Interesting site... [message #55100 is a reply to message #55098]

Wed, 08 March 2006 13:10

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Yes; that is what I was thinking. Then I would be interested to know that at what point in the four year span do they get in; freshman? Then there would have to be some kind of testing for placement; yet you don't find those statistics. Now I would imagine the public schools have an incentive to refrain from making those public since there would then be the possibility that their agenda would be under scrutiny. The public schools get money for each child that attends from the state. So it is in their best interest to enroll as many as they can in order to improve funding. Here if you switch from public to private you must take a series of tests to establish your place in the rankings. Now if there were homeschooled children flooding districts at the ninth grade level; wouldn't that be fairly evident? Because the drop off is so severe they must be entering the schools in pretty high numbers in some districts.
Then I wonder; after all the work you put into homeschooling the kids; is there a difficult transition from home to the more rigid demands of a structured system? Is that a let-down for the parents who decided they did not want the existing system to be too influential on their kids? The biggest jump in peer group empathy occurs after puberty.

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Re: Interesting site... [message #55101 is a reply to message #55100]

Wed, 08 March 2006 14:08

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

Well, of course I don't have all the answers. I can only surmise what's happening. I do know where I live it's no big deal to put the kids back into school at anytime. I believe you just tell them that you would like to quit home schooling and then they set up a meeting. The child is questioned and you bring his work with you to show where he is at. I believe that's all there is too it. There might be a disagreement about which grade he or she would be placed in but that could be arbitrated if it came about. I think that would be a rare case. Usually I believe the child is placed into the grade that he belongs in with little difficulty.

By law the school system must accept the child. I don't know what would happen if you decided to put your child back into school in 12 grade with 6 months to go. It would be interesting to see where he would be placed. If the school wanted him or her to start 12 grade over again I believe it would be up the the school to prove that the child isn't up to the level of the rest of the 12th grade students. If the child took a standardized test and was up to par I don't believe there would be anything the school could do but let him finish out the rest of 12th grade and graduate him.

I would imagine if the child was home schooled since kindergarten and you then put him or her into high school it would be a bit of a culture shock.

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