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Re: Ukraine [message #97321 is a reply to message #97227] Sun, 07 January 2024 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
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The Propaganda that Damned Ukraine. The title says it all. Article by Charles Freeman, retired Diplomat, and Ambassador to Saudi Arabia. Not an influencer. A realist and man with geopolitical experience in high places. What he knows from experience in the realm of diplomacy and governmental calculations. The bottom line he expresses here is the complete depletion of Ukraine. For no damn good reason. War, was not the answer. His summation:

Finally, this war should provoke some sober rethinking in both Washington and Moscow about the consequences of diplomacy-free, militarised foreign policy. Had the United States agreed to talk with Moscow, even if it had continued to reject much of what Moscow demanded, Russia would not have invaded Ukraine as it did. Had the West not intervened to prevent Ukraine from ratifying the treaty others helped it agree with Russia at the outset of the war, Ukraine would now be intact and at peace. This war did not need to take place. And every party to it has lost far more than it has gained.

https://unherd.com/?p=487346
Re: Ukraine [message #97322 is a reply to message #97321] Sun, 07 January 2024 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Re: Ukraine [message #97324 is a reply to message #97322] Mon, 08 January 2024 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
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Official straight up PROPAGANDA. This is what the state department and of course the RAND corporation, a think tank highly aligned with the Pentagon in planning and ideology puts out to assuage the public.

The Mighty Wurlitzer:

https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Wurlitzer-How-Played-America/dp/067403256X
Re: Ukraine [message #97327 is a reply to message #97324] Tue, 09 January 2024 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gofar99 is currently offline  gofar99
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Hi Everyone, I was about to pass on this one as I find that this sort of topic is heading into a direction that will cause resentments in normal and hopefully sane folks, but I believe some of the information is slanted and does not agree with events. To be sure our government and indeed all others will engage in things they don't tell us about. Not everything is as pretty as portrayed. I strongly suspect it was much worse during the active portions of the cold war. Also I consider misinformation a key element of policy for governments. It has been a key strategy since the beginning of time. Indeed it can sometimes avoid conflicts.

Ukraine would now be intact and at peace. This war did not need to take place.

I seriously doubt this statement. Russia wanted some things that would be unacceptable to any county. More territory (they already took Crimea) and wanted the two eastern parts of Ukraine. They wanted to tell Ukraine they could not be friendly with NATO and join it. And so on. Would your opinions be the same if Mexico said they wanted Texas back and we could not enter into agreements with Canada? No answer required, just food for thought. Russia wanted to take the areas without a fight and influence policy unilaterally that is for sure and the results so far have not benefited anyone. They figured (most likely) they could do what the did in Crimea. Just rattle the sword and move in. The Ukrainians had a few other thoughts. I would as well. So while we may never know all the details it seems clear to me that no amount of talking would have stopped the war. YMMV


Good Listening
Bruce
Re: Ukraine [message #97328 is a reply to message #97327] Wed, 10 January 2024 06:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
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We Americans are not well versed in international relations. We tend to see ourselves as the center of this world's affairs and happenings. Yet, we represent a mere 4.23 percent of the world's population. Our foreign affairs has reflected that. Particularly since the end of WWII when our dominance was established economically and militarily. As a good deal of Europe and Eurasia, (Russia) were in ruins. Russia alone bore the brunt of that world event. 27 million civilian and military dead. America's loss in comparison, (400,000) pales in comparison. And a country unscathed from destruction.
But we took the reins of world dominance in most all metrics of a society at its peak.

The last 50 years or so has not weathered well comparatively in those metrics internally for our country. But our State Department and military have not shown the same decline. Our adventurism into other countries "affairs" has not shown a good deal of positive outcomes for the populations of the countries we engaged and the political turnaround we'd anticipated. A quick check on our military interventions initiated throughout the world since the big war is 201.

Our State Department also has a long list of overt and covert dealings that a look at Wikipedia shows a host of regime change and coups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

Ukraine is part of that list now. And we very much did use overt and covert influences years prior to Russia commencing its military operations.The 2014 coup of Ukraine's sitting president at the time that had advocated neutrality has our diplomatic hands all over it. The overt part was to start arming Ukraine with weapons.
Russia had negotiated with Ukraine to "lease" the ports of Crimea prior to the two Minsk I an II talks to end hostilities in eastern Ukraine. Eastern Ukraine Bruce that is Russian speaking and Russian sympathetic. Our State Department and the NATO alliance was instrumental in refusing to "Sign" a last ditch treaty to prevent this war that did not have to happen.

Imagine Bruce to your hypothetical proposition Russia arming Mexico in its desire to regain Texas. What would the most likely response be from our country? Or do you forget the Cuban missile crisis. But who instigated that really? We had put missiles aimed at Russia in Turkey. John Kennedy wisely negotiated henceforth their removal as did Khrushchev in Cuba.

In all, we have a history and show a pattern of meddling in other nations' business. With scheme and with force. We have an M.O. And history has shown this to be counter productive. We project a cynical sense of faux virtues in the guise of liberty, freedom and democracy. When domestically our country now is a basket case. Crime, poverty, cost of living sky high, industry and manufacturing shipped off shore to maximize profit to a small percentage of the population. This war in Ukraine needs to end. Yesterday. Their country is depleted of population and economy. War is not the answer Bruce. But our modus operandi seems to speak otherwise.
Re: Ukraine [message #97333 is a reply to message #97328] Fri, 12 January 2024 20:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gofar99 is currently offline  gofar99
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Hi, I didn't mean to imply we were always the good guys. We are as imperialistic as any of the historical ones. I agree that war is not the answer..ever. Unfortunately, diplomacy fails to work a lot of the time. It presumes that all parties concerned are intelligent and will act in a manner that is beneficial not only to themselves but everyone else involved. I suspect that issues that can not be solved diplomatically will increase in the future. Sadly, the problems of resource availability will complicate an already messy future. When (not if) shortages of potable water, sufficient food and due to sea level rise dry land become severe the aggressive nature of our species will rear its angry head even more. It may be that some of the aggression now seen (like grabs for territory) in various parts of the world are early indicators of these issues. It saddens me as I don't expect to actually be around to experience it..but my children and grand children will. Where did we (collectively) go wrong? A long time ago it seems. Now that we seem to be facing the initial phases of the problems we tend to pass blame to anyone but ourselves and hope they go away. Fat chance this time. We (again collectively) only try to correct problems when we are smacked in the face with them. It is easier to pass the buck than take corrective action. I would really love to be wrong, but based on history and present events I don't see it. I like to be optimistic, but current trends don't appear to support that sort of thinking. Sorry to be a bit negative, but such is how I see it now. YMMV

Good Listening
Bruce
Re: Ukraine [message #97334 is a reply to message #97333] Sat, 13 January 2024 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
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I can agree with the gist of that Bruce. But my gripe is our continued antagonism in the world that we put a blanket claim of national security and "rules based diplomacy" on. For instance, we're doing the same with Taiwan as we have with Ukraine. It's called turning a country into a porcupine. Arming it. My stance is. It's none of our damn business. China and Taiwan can work out their mutual history and claims on their own. Just as Russia and Ukraine could have. Until we stuck our nose in.

We as a nation have overstepped our bounds with impunity with foreign relations. History documents that. And if you understand the underpinnings of the BRICS coalition. That is a direct response to what our nation has carried out with it's entitlement of the dollar standard in trade since the Bretton Woods conference after WWII. Principally our financial sanctioning of countries, freezing their assets, taking their gold, (Venezuela). And our massive trade imbalance we've run up using bonds rather than goods to trade with.
We tried sanctioning with Russia and it blew back in our face. But we now want to take their assets tied up in western banks to promote more funding with the Ukraine debacle. Instead of making overtures to end this unnecessary conflict.

Our country has so many domestic issues to be better financed than what our military escapades and 7 to 8 hundred military installations throughout the world needing more and more funding each and every year now. And a military industrial complex that like our health care industry. Is the most expensive in the world and is fraught with cost overruns and overly complex expensive unreliable weapons systems. Mind you we couldn't even make enough 155mm shells to support the Ukrainians. Basic material.

I feel sorry for the Ukrainians. They've had a complex history with Russia and with Europe. They have lost by some accounting, (they won't release a count) hundreds of thousands of young men and women in this quest. And this war cannot be the outcome as was hoped for at the onset. As the article by Charles Freeman expresses. Assumptions were made and perceived by all parties that should now be reassessed in governmental circles.
I don't know though that our government has that capability unfortunately.

Re: Ukraine [message #97440 is a reply to message #97334] Sun, 18 February 2024 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
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Location: Kansas City Missouri
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I recently came upon this blog that I find really interesting for thoughtful analysis via a westerner's take on Russia. In lieu also of the recent interview of Mr. Putin by the controversial personality Tucker Carlson. Putin later groused that all he threw him were softballs. He was ready for whatever heat Tucker could throw him. I listened to it and it backed up my revision of Putin, and the Russian federation as it stands in the world today.
This blog also augments the revision I've been cultivating for a while trying to get an idea of what current world events are and why they are. Like I've tried to express in this thread, is that our slant on what's going on in the world is somewhat tailored to the dominant ideology presented in news platforms and official government releases. But what is the other side saying? Contradictions arise that shouldn't be dismissed. Of course as the well worn acronym goes. YMMV.

https://patrickarmstrong.ca/2023/12/30/listen-to-what-hes-saying/

What's the latest dampening effect to the Putin interview? The revelation of Russia's space weapon! The Mighty Wurlitzer playing away.
Re: Ukraine [message #97455 is a reply to message #97440] Sat, 24 February 2024 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
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The prior and this are hopefully indicators that the more mainstream press will elaborate on with continuance with this war. This piece is an interview with an on the ground UN coordinator that's seen first hand the terrible cost this war. Like all wars do to people.
I hope there's some traction going on in high places to be sane and rational.

https://news.un.org/en/interview/2024/02/1146752
Re: Ukraine [message #97482 is a reply to message #97455] Wed, 06 March 2024 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
Messages: 1185
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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A lesson of wisdom. From former ambassador to Russia Jack Matlock. It's well worth anyone taking time to listen to this senior fellow speak of carrying out U.S. diplomacy at the time of the Soviet Unions breakup. And his narrative on the position of the former Soviet ideology, socialism-communism compared with the U.S. ideology, democracy-capitalism. How they were used towards diplomatic initiatives and military policies.
Mr. Matlock gives a very intimate look from actually being there to what the historical ramifications were then and are now to the current war in Ukraine is all about. As he states at the end of his interview. Ukraine and Russia are basically in a sense having a "family dispute" that is being meddled with by outsiders. Great interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxjD02QnvJU

https://jackmatlock.com/2022/11/there-must-be-a-negotiated-settlement-with-russia/#more-1023
https://americandiplomacy.web.unc.edu/2024/02/the-christmas-gift-that-keeps-giving/
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