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Re: Ukraine [message #97027 is a reply to message #97026] Mon, 25 September 2023 17:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
Messages: 1127
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Well I don't know if you were involved with high level governmental planning or advice back then. But if not. How would you see it? I mean, this was, is administrative high level planning. This isn't something the public see's in this country. The Russian government itself sought out western economic advice then. What probably was visible was how traumatic it was for the public to go from government subsidized housing and other social support from the Soviet era to the crunch of western influenced financialized privatizing. People having a hard time coping with this new economy. That has been documented. But hey, McDonalds restaurants came into being there.

As far as the nuclear INF treaty with Russia. The US withdrew from it in 2019.
The US has been arming and making inroads with Ukraine since 2014. https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/#:~:text=Since%202014%2C%20the%20United%20States,and%20improve%20interoperability%20with%20NATO.
And encouraging via our State Department in the regime change of Viktor Yanukovych keeping Ukraine neutral towards a pro western, pro NATO oriented successor.

NATO is the singular most largest reason for this war occurring. And now it's seen as a paper tiger with the ramifications of what this tragic unnecessary conflict has brought forth. It's shameful. I guess next on to Taiwan in our Crusades quest in Democracy vs Autocracy. Our country just can't get enough war mongering to satisfy it's desires.
Re: Ukraine [message #97028 is a reply to message #97027] Mon, 25 September 2023 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18727
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I understand what you're saying and I have no doubt you have investigated this very thoroughly. You have a curious mind and I'm sure you have studied this matter.

But I've studied it too. I don't care about the credentials of an author or a source if I think they're gaslighting me. In fact, throwing credentials around is one of the best tools of a gaslighter. I don't need to try to understand their motives - if what is being said doesn't square with observable events, I disregard them.

Since I know people in and from Ukraine, Moldova and Crimea, I'm interested, and so I stay informed. And sometimes I see things on TV and on the internet that don't square with what I've observed. So if I see things like that, I disregard them.

What I know is there was little apparent Western interest in Ukraine in the 1990s and there's a ton of it right now. That's obvious. There's a war going on and we're sending lots of support to Ukraine. We didn't support them like this in the 1990s.

It's not like the players changed, at least not since 1999. Putin and the novi russkiy have become more emboldened in the last decade, that's really all that's different.

And that's why I'm saying what I'm saying. I do not think America or any NATO nation is or was using Ukraine as a puppet. If we were, we could have started that long ago. It would have been easier then, when the newly-independent countries were forming.

I didn't see anything like that happening in the 1990s. We just let 'em be. And maybe that was the right thing to do.

But after Russia invaded Ukraine last year, we jumped to their aid and I'm glad. In hindsight, I wish we had done that in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea. Or maybe even before that, I might have liked to see us engage Russia in the 1990s when they were at war with Chechnya. Back then, I thought Russia was protecting its economic resources since Chechnya fought for its independence. Now I think I was wrong and that Russia should have allowed Chechnya to have its independence without a fight.

In any case, we didn't involve ourselves in any of those conflicts. I'm glad America decided enough is enough and we've assisted Ukraine.
Re: Ukraine [message #97029 is a reply to message #97028] Tue, 26 September 2023 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
Messages: 1127
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Yeah Wayne, I really didn't understand dwelling on that period of time from you. Learning of your connection there. I don't know really under what auspices or how long. But, other than the western economic advisory mission to Russia's new economic standing. There wasn't really any American presence in that part of the world. The cold war was over. We won! But diplomatically in Europe the NATO advancement begins. This isn't gaslighting from a source like Jeffrey Sachs. This is what transpired. And when he says that assurances to Gorbachev, then Yeltsin that NATO would not expand. He's telling the truth. There is documentation to back it up. In good faith Russia dissolved the Warsaw Pact because of those assurances. But slowly, diplomatically, all the Baltic countries aligned. This was the slow encroachment of a military armament in countries bordering Russia. With missiles aimed at Russia. The cold war was over but nonetheless, it wasn't.

Ukraine whose name historically itself means "borderland". Russia has had a long history with it. The fact that our government took advantage of Ukraine's burgeoning desire to align with Europe, then NATO with a subversive regime color revolution in 2014 was the beginning of what is now this terrible conflict. The Minsk agreements both failed to end fighting in eastern Ukraine due to American arming of Ukraine.

Now we're doing that in Taiwan. It's called in popular diplomatic parlance, turning a country into a porcupine. That is our long history of subversive and clandestine meddling in other countries affairs. That is what has been the impetus of the formation of the BRICS initiative. Our meddling and our sanctioning and our war mongering.
Re: Ukraine [message #97035 is a reply to message #97029] Fri, 29 September 2023 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18727
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I was going to leave this thread lay, since I think we came to a good place to let it rest. But I did want to say one more thing, to clarify myself on the comments I made about gaslighting.

I am generally purposely non-specific about my thoughts and opinions on political matters and about the policies and laws of the United States for a variety of reasons. But I don't have any problems talking about the comments I've heard from private individuals and especially those in the media or certain so-called "influencers."

I've seen folks spinning the facts to a point that they are actually not facts anymore. These are textbook cases of gaslighting. They describe a version of "reality" that has distortions. It's most effective when there are plenty of true and demonstratable facts mixed in with the distortions, so maybe the audience doesn't notice the distortions and simply believes them. Even better if they cannot check the facts, or if it's inconvenient enough that they won't.

Not everyone does this, of course, and I've seen plenty of sources that are spot-on, or perhaps I should say they relay the situation in a way that makes sense and that fits with what I have observed over the years.

I don't intend to name those I've caught spinning the facts or outright lying. But I will say what makes me most sad is some of the gaslighters are actually people I agree with in many other respects. Sad to see those because that makes me check them off the list of reliable sources.

Let me give you one example, one of many. I won't get into the details too much and instead leave that to the reader to research if they are so inclined.

Look at the situation with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Most people in Ukraine are Orthodox or Jews. There are also some Moslems and other religions. Some are atheist or agnostic because of the Soviet years, but frankly, most people are not. Most are Orthodox Christian.

There's a problem there though. There's a schism that has formed in the church. In the not-so-distant past, I could have referred to the Eastern Orthodox or Russian Orthodox church and considered it to be the same thing as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. They were definitely cut from the same cloth, so to speak.

The history of that church actually has early ties to Kiev. St. Cyril's Monastery is in Kiev. So a big part of what was historically Russian actually started in Ukraine, certainly where the Orthodox Church is concerned.

The Orthodox Church doesn't have a pope, but the closest thing they have to that is called the patriarchate. At first, there was a Kyiv Patriarchate but that position was later moved to Moscow. That happened way back in the 1600s.

But now there's a problem. Some - probably most - in Ukraine do not think having their patriarchate in Moscow makes sense, and in fact, they fear that the Moscow Church is biased and even puppets of Putin in some cases. So many do not recognize the authority of the Moscow patriarchate anymore. They have installed their own patriarchate in Kiev, considering him to be a restoration of the pre-1600s lineage.

You can see how complications can arise from this situation. Think about the days when the Pope and the Kings had power-struggles in Europe and you can understand the situation in the various factions of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the governments of former Soviet republics. It's a thorny situation.

So when I hear "influencers" in America talking about Ukrainian policies that somehow "violate the church" or discussing "ethics" related to the church - if I don't also hear a basic description of the history of the church and its complexities - it's self-evident that their editorial is a complete spin-job. They are trying to play upon people's emotions without describing the whole situation. They are trying to promote an agenda.

Even more sadly, at least to me, is that the people I hear doing this didn't need the sales pitch. They have valid concerns about problems here in America and could provide valid suggestions that don't involve Ukraine at all. They don't need to use Ukraine as a skapegoat for American problems and should instead focus on the real problems they are trying to solve. Their message is distorted, so of course their proposed solutions are distorted. They would be better off describing the actual problems, and talking about their proposed solutions.

Any person that tells a story with partial information - spinning it to paint a picture that is almost completely false - frustrates me because I know they are complete gaslighters, and especially when I also know that others might not identify the deception. Most Americans don't know the history of the Eastern Orthodox Church, so it's easy to sell them a lie. Even intelligent people can be swayed.

There's a ton of that here. I generally just tune it out. I don't need to waste my time listening to a flat-earther or any other kind of gaslighter. My hope is that others will see it too, and to increase their scrutiny of their information sources.
Re: Ukraine [message #97036 is a reply to message #97035] Fri, 29 September 2023 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
Messages: 1127
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Yeah Wayne it's difficult for the public to disseminate information in our world. Always has I reckon. Nowadays though we have tremendous media and social outlets to give this, that and the other opinions, critiques, judgements and agenda's to sift through. I go by what adds up to me. All anyone can do. Our mass media does not give much nuance from toeing the line, especially in international affairs to what government agencies give out. I've found this to be the case too often.

A good example would be the so called Chinese SPY balloon that created media hysteria months ago. It was a damn weather balloon is all. General Milley confirmed it not being able to transmit over the US. It's still referred to the spy balloon though. Probably to save face. But the political theater then went so far as the military sending up jets to shoot down essentially a hobby balloon in Alaska released by ham radio enthusiasts in Illinois. That points to our hyped up foreign relations with China and other countries we deem as a threat.

I have gone from Putin/Russia disdain in the beginning of the Ukraine war to what this thread I created has led me. By what I can disseminate from what I feel are reliable and reasoned sources. Government's do not reveal their poker hand to the public. They have agenda's, they have skin in the game. The public and whatever ethical journalistic source that you feel are un-politicized enough and curious enough to explore what the contradictions lead to are your best judgement for what there is to go on. That goes for the public in Ukraine as well. They don't know all the cards being told them are a good hand either. I'll leave it at that. But I stand by my posts.


Re: Ukraine [message #97192 is a reply to message #97036] Tue, 14 November 2023 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
Messages: 1127
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
In light of the current situation in Ukraine and whether or not our congress will further fund this fiasco. This article gives a breakdown of the breakdown of negotiations going back before hostilities commenced in earnest. A detailed account of the various peace negotiations that transpired and the influence that the United States and Great Britain had on them.

A reflection on our diplomatic and Imperial world order ideology. It is a pattern that has played out since the end of WWII and the idealistic notion of exceptionalism of our virtues as a template to instill our democracy in the world.

The toll on Ukraine has been devastating. It is a war that did not have to occur. Ukraine could have stayed neutral and bring in all the neoliberal economic doctrine it desired to exploit its working class it wanted. The NATO component was their undoing.

https://braveneweurope.com/michael-von-der-schulenburg-hajo-funke-harald-kujat-peace-for-ukraine
Re: Ukraine [message #97197 is a reply to message #97192] Sat, 18 November 2023 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
Messages: 1127
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
I know, I know. Just another influencer to supplement my faithless notions that Truth, Justice & the American way will not prevail in the end. I can't help it I guess. But I think our nation is and has pursued a failed ideology for too long. Like a chronic disease. This article I think is rather amusing, in the vein of black humor. But it points out that some in our elite journalistic publications have come to realize that maybe our policies aren't working out as planned. But nonetheless, double down on the ideology that is outdated and self defeating.

https://sonar21.com/some-neo-cons-slowly-coming-to-grips-with-reality-in-ukraine/
Re: Ukraine [message #97201 is a reply to message #97197] Sun, 19 November 2023 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18727
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Honestly, dude, this just ain't about us.
Re: Ukraine [message #97202 is a reply to message #97201] Sun, 19 November 2023 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
Messages: 1127
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
I don't agree Wayne. There is too much factual accounting by reliable reasoned sources to dismiss it for me. One thing though. Our State Department will never admit to any involvement. That is their history of spinning denial. National security you know.
Re: Ukraine [message #97227 is a reply to message #97202] Sat, 25 November 2023 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Rusty is currently offline  Rusty
Messages: 1127
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
"Lets just fight". Eazy for him to say. You do the fighting & dying. We'll supply the weapons. Here's a Ukrainian TV interview with David Arakhamia. Head of the Ukrainian delegation of peace talks prior to the Russian invasion. Then British prime minister Boris Johnson visiting Kiev announced that the western, (US, Britain and NATO countries), made that statement and said they would not sign the document for Ukrainian neutrality. Which was the "main point" Russia had insisted upon. Russia's red line.

Russia beat our sanctions. Taken the territory that could have been bargained with before. Not now. They've improved their economy. Aligned with the southern tier of nations to form BRICS to de-dollarize. And they've decimated the Ukrainian army and the NATO weapons that made no difference. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin visited Kiev recently that military pundits referred to as, "a hospice visit".
It's starting to unfold. The subterfuge behind the war.
The war that didn't need to be. Thousands... Dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G_j-7gLnWU
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