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Compression Drivers [message #74146] Tue, 16 October 2012 19:28 Go to next message
rkeman is currently offline  rkeman
Messages: 78
Registered: March 2010
Location: Florida
Viscount
Parts Express has just introduced a new 1" compression driver modeled after the B&C DE-250. The Dayton Audio D250P-8 1" Polyimide Compression Horn Driver costs only $50, but appears to match the B&C DE-250 specifications quite closely. If the unit-to-unit consistency is good it may be a real winner coupled to the H290C.
icon13.gif  Re: Compression Drivers [message #74147 is a reply to message #74146] Tue, 16 October 2012 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18669
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I suppose it might be worth looking at but I must admit I'm not too pleased with what I think are probably Chinese copies. I'm seeing this happen a lot in audio lately, little companies springing up selling Chinese knock-offs of products from popular brands. Some of these companies are actually sponsoring this "development" in China by sending them the devices to copy.

I don't know that it is illegal to send a compression driver to China to be copied, unless it infringes on a patent. But I'm not interested in supporting that kind of thing myself. I mean, isn't there some responsibility on the part of these companies to do a little bit of R&D in order to be in the manufacturing business, or is it right that they just copy whatever they want?

If B&C wanted to shift their manufacturing to China for cost savings, that's one thing. You may or may not find that to be a good move. But for other companies to do that, to have zero R&D investment, no engineers, no technical talent at all - for them to send a device to China just to have it copied cheaply, well, I find that more than distasteful, I find it downright disgusting.

So I guess you can say I'm not going to be trying the Denovo or Parts Express driver copies. I would suggest to all other hobbyists that the best thing they could do to support ongoing development of quality hifi products is to avoid buying from companies that copy products like those. If the company has no engineering staff, avoid purchasing their "house" brand products, particularly if they have specs that match another popular model. That's my view, for what it's worth.

Re: Compression Drivers [message #74151 is a reply to message #74147] Wed, 17 October 2012 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rkeman is currently offline  rkeman
Messages: 78
Registered: March 2010
Location: Florida
Viscount
Checking the B&C website reveals no patent claims on the DE-250 data sheet or in the company information. The driver materials, diaphragm shape and other features don't appear significantly different than comparable 1" compression drivers and it seems doubtful that there would be intellectual property issues. The main concern for the consumer would be availability of the product and support. Replacement parts - in this case the driver diaphragm - should be easily obtained. Parts Express is probably as stable a supplier as can be found in the audio and electronics industry at this point.

Parts Express has a history of providing the DIY audio community with a source of quality products no longer available from other vendors. Subwoofers comparable to the long discontinued Adire Audio Shiva and Tempest live on as the Dayton DVC series. They are American made. The QSC horn in the Econowave is only available due to the investment by Parts Express. The company has been aggressive in copying some of the better audio products available and manufacturing some of them overseas. They have also produced many original or uniquely modified products. Many loudspeakers and other audio products fabricated here or in Europe depend extensively on parts sourced from Asia. These are commonly accepted business practices and usually lead to greater product variety and value for the consumer.

The loss of US manufacturing is a very complex issue that carries with it a deep emotional response from many Americans. I have no affiliations with Parts Express and brought attention to this product only to enlighten others. Pi Speakers provides a valuable service to the DIY audio community through this forum and if any distress has resulted from these postings, please accept my sincerest apology.
Re: Compression Drivers [message #74152 is a reply to message #74151] Wed, 17 October 2012 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18669
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Oh, heavens, don't apologize. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing new products and alternate sources here. We've shifted suppliers before, and I'm always interested in hearing about new technologies and new devices. For example, the DE250 is a fairly new part for me, I was using the JBL 2426 for years before trying out the DE250. So don't worry that I would want to discourage you or anyone else from discussing new or alternate parts here in this forum.

It's just that I find it really wrong to copy devices. That's just my personal opinion, so I jumped up on a soap box for a minute.

There has been a long legal debate on reverse-engineerng, even before overseas outsourcing was commonplace. There is legal precedence that reverse-engineering is acceptable as long as no intellectual property rights are violated. That doesn't necessarily have to be a patent violation - If a company obtains blueprints or source code or other engineering documentation, they can be in violation of copyright. But as long as none of that has happened, it is legally acceptable to reverse-engineer a product in most cases.

I still find product copying to be an ugly practice, and especially in a company that has no engineering staff, and just sends a product overseas to have it copied. Is it illegal? No, I don't think so. But will I support it? No, I will not. It's a personal choice.

Re: Compression Drivers [message #74156 is a reply to message #74152] Wed, 17 October 2012 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
petew is currently offline  petew
Messages: 63
Registered: June 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM USA
Viscount
Wayne, I agree with you completely on this. Especially on the blatant counterfeit Lab Gruppen amps you see discussed at the big A/V forum site. No different than a fake Rolex or fake Cisco router. Those should be confiscated at the port of entry, shredded and sent back to China as scrap.
Re: Compression Drivers [message #74157 is a reply to message #74152] Wed, 17 October 2012 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mantha3 is currently offline  mantha3
Messages: 72
Registered: May 2012
Location: Lino Lakes, MN
Viscount
It looks like this new Dayton driver is a copy of the older B&C 250 driver lineup

B&C used to carry two versions of the 250... One in a Titanium diaphragm and one in a polyimide diaphragm.

I wonder if the old B&C lineup is what was used by Dayton to build these two versions around... The new Dayton driver here has two versions like the old B&C in a Titanium diaphragm and one in a polyimide diaphragm
Re: Compression Drivers [message #74167 is a reply to message #74146] Thu, 18 October 2012 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
blvdre is currently offline  blvdre
Messages: 35
Registered: April 2010
Location: Burlington, VT
Baron
Believe me, I can relate to the desire for affordable drivers. But in the case of a specific driver being copied and sold cheaply, there is a downside. The eventual result of this dynamic is that R&D goes away (being driven out of business), and with it, product innovation.

Of course, that's the extreme. After all, in this example, we're only talking about one specific driver. But every little bit counts.

The other very real issue is quality control. All things may appear equal, but there may be hidden surprises in those inexpensive drivers.
Re: Compression Drivers [message #74411 is a reply to message #74167] Thu, 08 November 2012 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matts is currently offline  Matts
Messages: 359
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
I think it's too bad if PE takes market away from B&C with these products. In my opinion, B&C really hit a home run with the DE250, and when I first tried it I liked it better than the JBL driver, with no regard to cost. Just sounded a little smoother and more natural to my ear. They deserve to make a profit on it, especially since they offered it for a bargain price, compared to the other drivers it competed with. I'd like them to spend some of the profits as a reward for a good job, then plow a little back into R&D to make the next great advance that we'll all be looking for in the future. I don't believe the copycats of the world are going to move us forward the way the real designers do.
Re: Compression Drivers [message #74426 is a reply to message #74146] Sat, 10 November 2012 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zheka is currently offline  zheka
Messages: 80
Registered: June 2012
Location: Chicago burbs
Viscount
Wayne,

Have you noticed any changes in authentic DE250s recently?

Geddes spotted the change early this year and found it significant enough that he had to modify the crossover.
Re: Compression Drivers [message #74430 is a reply to message #74146] Sat, 10 November 2012 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
GRBoomer is currently offline  GRBoomer
Messages: 7
Registered: November 2010
Location: MN
Esquire

Well with B&C having problem getting product to market, it only hurts them more. The DE250's delivery just slipped another month until mid December. LoudspeakerPlus and PartsExpress and I assume everyone else cannot get any inventory.

I was going to go B&C for some of the reasons above. Now, I am forced to find alternatives. 4Pis need to be up in running in my movie room by Thanksgiving.

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