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Components beliefs [message #1563] Tue, 03 May 2005 16:34 Go to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
I am often asked what I think of certain components, amps etc. and I often reply that it makes no difference to me. As I drove home from the GPAF it dawned on me that this might be misconstrued and perhaps some explaination is in order.

I do believe that there are likely differences in the sound of audio components, but to me it still doesn't matter. Consider this test.

Create four rooms of audio equipment, if the rooms are identical then it makes the experiment easier to follow, but it is not necessary that the rooms be identical, the same result will be obtained.

The components, loudspeakers, everything, must be hidden from view - of course the best looking system will always sound the best, that goes without saying!

Ask listeners to rate the systems. Now randomize the components in the variuos rooms. Rate again, (lather, rinse, repeat)

I can say with virtual certainty that the ratings will follow the speakers. Do the other compoenets matter? I am sure that to a certain extent they do, but in the big picture of the whole systems sound quality, they don't really.

The principle that I follow is "benefit bucks". What does one dollar of expenditure yield in sound quality benefit. To me the speakers are the overwhelming factor - always have been, always will be. I then weight my "budget" by the "benefit bucks" (everyone has a budget, and if you don't PLEASE contact me!). In other words, spend your money where it makes the most audible difference. In all of my systems the speakers are budgeted at about 65-80% of the total budget. To me this works out about right.

So back to our test. What about the looks of the equioment. Inexpensive amplifiers don't look "cool". If you buy this stuff based on its looks, then simply buy an empty chassis, place some tubes on it, some chrome, even some gold if you like, and put the Sony receiver in another room. That will save you a ton of money.

I like good looks too, and as far as a piece of sculpture goes - thats what a "pretty" amp is - I love sculpture. I have lots of it, all over the house. This helps to keep my desire for "pretty objcets" at bay when I go out and buy my audio equipment.

So - do audio components matter? Sure they do about 10% worth.

Just some sugestions.

Earl Geddes

Re: Components beliefs [message #1564 is a reply to message #1563] Tue, 03 May 2005 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
I agree on the looks aspect; it corrupts the whole concept of acquiring the best sound for the money since appearance=most of the cost of retail equipment.
Can you address this issue for me. I hear many speakers I like and can listen to for long periods without getting irritated; and anyone of them would suffice to provide good music in my home.
However my CD player gets irritating after long periods; so I switch to vinyl. Trading my equipment for a cheaper less well engineered table always results in the return of irritation.
My point; Any of those good speakers can be enjoyed but without the right front-end I get irritated. Cheap amps do it too. Soon as the good amp goes back in I can drift along with the music again.
Now the reply will attribute that too phsycological effects but I will disagree. I have no axe to grind favoring the more expensive or complicated equipment; I am too long in this hobby to fall prey to easy explanations like that.
How do you see this end of the discussion?
I feel a good table/arm with some decent amps will make music with any of a dozen properlly designed speakers; but the reverse does not always ring true.

Re: Components beliefs [message #1566 is a reply to message #1564] Tue, 03 May 2005 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
You wrote:

"Now the reply will attribute that too phsycological effects but I will disagree. I have no axe to grind favoring the more expensive or complicated equipment; I am too long in this hobby to fall prey to easy explanations like that."

Whenever I see comments like that I have to reply; I am too long in this "profession" to fall prey to easy explanations like that.

Of course your experience is psychological (sp!), you don't mean to imply that there is a physical reason for your reaction do you? I know of no one else who suffers this peculiar malady, do you? I mean even if you did, that's still two in a billion or so people who listen to audio systems.

The one thing that is certain in the audio world (or any other world for that matter) is that there is no explaination for the unique personal experience. I can't explain yours any more than I could explain anyone elses, and I won't try. I can say with some certainty that in a double blind audio experiment there would not likely be a single other experience like yours. And even if there was, one in a large sample is considered an "outlier" and is usually just ignored.

Enjoy your LP's and tube amps. I hope they continue to cure your problem.

Earl

Re: Components beliefs [message #1568 is a reply to message #1563] Tue, 03 May 2005 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
Messages: 704
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
I believe the appearance of the smoking color-changing fountain atop the source component is an important factor too, contributing 20% or more to my listening enjoyment.

Re: Components beliefs [message #1569 is a reply to message #1568] Tue, 03 May 2005 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
For the record, I objected to the fountain.

Re: Components beliefs [message #1570 is a reply to message #1566] Tue, 03 May 2005 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks for the thoughtfull reply. Not to beat a dead horse but I do believe in a reference standard. When good equipment is playing in a room you know it immediately; and most of those who take this seriously tend to agree on whether a system sounds good; not necessarily on whether it is their personal favorite, but on the fact that it does sound good. That is the reason I believe that some eqiupment tends to stay popular for many many years, even after the marketing dept. is long gone.
As for my malady, how do you explain all those people who can discriminate between the sound of different wooden guitar bodies; is that not a physiological response? Do you imply that what they are percieving has a determination component or some kind of intellectually motivated choice?
Double-blind testing is a fallacy anyway; which of course you know.
The pshycological paradigm infects all aspects of acoustics logically reverting opinions to personal experience. Just one mans opinion.
But I will admitt to; upon hearing the tones of bass fiddle flattened out by cheap electronics even from another room it does get irritating. The position that there is no basis for comparison due to differing perceptions works both ways; and my bewilderment probably would equal your own at the exposure to alternate playback systems of less than competant ability.( Thats ability I refer to; not price or exorbitant extortion.) As you can guess this is an important subject to me and I appreciate you taking the time to discuss it; J.R.

Re: Components beliefs [message #1571 is a reply to message #1569] Tue, 03 May 2005 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
Messages: 704
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Sorry, Earl, I had to do that. For those who weren't there, the Audio Kinesis room had the coolest looking tabletop fountain I've ever seen. It was so unusual that it competed with the speakers for everyone's attention, but only for a moment until you started listening and realized how good the Summas sounded.

I do agree with you about the relative importance of the speakers in an audio system. I can't comment on the relative importance in percentage terms, but a good speaker can sound very good with mass market electroncs (as did the Summa) while even the best electroncs can't mask the limitations of a poorly designed speaker. The room is also an important factor, as is the quality of the recording. Some highly compressed and equalized recordings wouldn't sound very good in any system.

Re: Components beliefs [message #1572 is a reply to message #1571] Tue, 03 May 2005 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
Thanks for the compliments.

When we show in Denver, the room will be bare!! Nothing to look at or talk about except the speakers. Got to keep the folks focused!

I know that the percentage issue is hard to come to terms with, but its critical. No matter what the percentage is, to you, it is imperative that you decide what it is or you will not optimize your purchase. I have seen this over and over and over. The budget gets blown on a whim and everything else gets sacrificed. Please do decide this critical point before you buy your next system. You'll thank me for it in the end.

The recording should never be part of the equipment evaluation. Thats why it is crucial that the source material be something which you know very well and that you should not expect to hear anything new from. I have used Moondance for evaluation for years. I know every location where the voice clips the microphone input and I darn well better hear that! On a very new recording of Lion King, which is superb by the way, there is a glitch at about 3 minutes. I always listen for that. If I don't hear it I know something is wrong.



Re: Components beliefs [message #1573 is a reply to message #1563] Tue, 03 May 2005 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18680
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I agree completely. I believe that most people agree with this too, that the environment and speakers have the most influence on sound quality, followed by the other components. But to have the best, to go the last 10%...


Re: Components beliefs [message #1574 is a reply to message #1568] Tue, 03 May 2005 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18680
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)


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