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Re: Hypothetical Question About Horns In Line Arrays [message #22709 is a reply to message #22708] Wed, 29 June 2005 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric J is currently offline  Eric J
Messages: 71
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
According to my non-professional reading of Jim Griffin's white paper, the center to center separation of circular drivers yields to ACTIVE RADIATING FACTOR(ARF) AND SLOT (RECTANGULAR) DRIVERS. The flange detracts from the active area in the array, and any space between the drivers. So the ARF is the total percentage of the active area in the array from the top of the tweeters to the bottom of the tweeter line. If you used a single long thin driver horn, then the ARF would be 100%. Stacking them takes away ARF %age, but cutting flanges increases it.

According to the values in the white paper, the ARF needs to be 80% or better.

RIBBON PLANAR DRIVERS use another method.

eric j.

Re: the wave front [message #22710 is a reply to message #22705] Wed, 29 June 2005 18:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lcholke is currently offline  lcholke
Messages: 73
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Eric,

Here are a few things that may help.

The first concept is that if 2 waves are 180 deg out of phase they combine to 0 spl. That is how the bose silence headphones work.

The second concept is that each wave travels to the ear in a straight line from the source.

The next thing to consider is the variance of the paths each wave makes as it travels to the ear. The far sources have to travel farther than the near ones.

So now when they combine they may be 180 deg out of phase and you will hear nothing.

So the horn will cause the wave front to have different path lengths from the start.

Now if the sources are 1/4- 1/2 a wave length apart they have a tendency to combine as a plane wave. I have seen arguments for and against this description.

Some times math and sometimes geometry are the best tools for these things. A few lines in a chat forum can be difficult and frustrating. Let me know if you want some book sources. There are good sources on acoustics on the web also if one digs.

-Linc

Re: Hypothetical Question About Horns In Line Arrays [message #22711 is a reply to message #22709] Thu, 30 June 2005 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
Messages: 704
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Thanks for responding, but I'm still not sure I understand. In the hypothetical horn array I described would I have an array whose ARF is closer to 80% or 25%? I suspect the answer is closer to 25%. Regardless of whether the 1" drivers are horn loaded or not, they are still 1" drivers spaced 5.16" center-to-center.

Re: Hypothetical Question About Horns In Line Arrays [message #22714 is a reply to message #22711] Sat, 02 July 2005 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
Messages: 704
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Actually this wasn't just a casual question. I really would like another informed opinion about whether an array of horns is a viable option with line array speakers. Thanks.

Re: Hypothetical Question About Horns In Line Arrays [message #22715 is a reply to message #22714] Sat, 02 July 2005 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18686
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said Regardless of whether the 1" drivers are horn loaded or not, they are still 1" drivers spaced 5.16" center-to-center. Here's an article from JBL that shows their 2370 horn used in arrays. Works just like you'd expect. Nice polars down low, with some lobing along the vertical up high.


Re: Hypothetical Question About Horns In Line Arrays [message #22716 is a reply to message #22715] Sat, 02 July 2005 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FredT is currently offline  FredT
Messages: 704
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Thanks, Wayne. I saw a picture of a line array someone had built using an array of inexpensive vertically positioned 2X5" piezo horns ($0.95 ea from Parts Express) and was thinking either they know something I don't know or that array is going to have some lobing issues. As I suspected, it's the latter, in addition to the questionable sound quality of a bunch of 95 cent piezo tweeters.

Too bad. That means you still have to spend a bunch of money on drivers, especially the tweeter arrays, to build a good sounding pair of line arrays. Maybe we should all find a less expensive hobby, like restoring vintage automobiles or motorcycling:)


Re: Hypothetical Question About Horns In Line Arrays [message #22718 is a reply to message #22716] Fri, 08 July 2005 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric J is currently offline  Eric J
Messages: 71
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
I defer to the experts, but according to the white paper, the center to center discussion is only for cone and dome speakers. The edge of the horn is the critical factor for horns.

But the real problem as I see it is the huge difference in sensitivity between the horn array and the mid/woof cone array. Balancing this even using active crossovers, would be hard. On would need a power amp that is adjustable. And doing it with passive crossover would just destroy all the benefits of the horns, in my opinion.

eric j

Re: Hypothetical Question About Horns In Line Arrays [message #22720 is a reply to message #22718] Mon, 11 July 2005 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Fitzmaurice is currently offline  Bill Fitzmaurice
Messages: 335
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
It is the matter of the frame span that counts with horns, not the center to center spacing. A maximum of 10% frame to mouth ratio is considered adequate in most cases. You'll get the best result by trimming away all the flange so that there is one continuous horn mouth on the vertical plane. Much has to do with the listening distance; in the case of PA one doesn't have to be so fussy about the frame widths as whatever lobing might occur dissipates once you get far enough from the array, but for hi-fi in the average size listening room you've got to be more judicious. Sensitivity problems aren't that tough to get around, you just wire the tweets to a higher impedance to balance it out. In the case of piezos they have a lower sensitivity to begin with, and being high impedance with capacitive loading anyway you don't have to be too concerned about what series wiring will do to the impedance.

There is no simple answer [message #22727 is a reply to message #22699] Mon, 18 July 2005 13:48 Go to previous message
Earl Geddes is currently offline  Earl Geddes
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
There were a lot of answers to this post and I found that I really didn't agree with many of them.

I did an entire chapter on this subject in my book and from what I found, the prevailing philosophy was mostly incorrect.

There are three things that have to be considered - dimensions, numbers of units, and mouth wavefront shape, including frame gaps. They are all more and less important depending on the specific configuration.

Some say the wavefront shape is the most important and some the spacing, others the gaps between the drivers. In what I found, all of these factor interplay in a complex way for short lines of a few units. At two units the wavefront and the gap are more important then the spacing, at three and four the gap becomes unimportant and the wavefront shape and spacing are the most important. But above about four units, these factors all have almost no effect, the total height of the array being dominate.

There are also near field and far field differences, etc. In detail, the subject is very complex. A complete analysis can be found in my book where techniques are also given to analyze any specific configuration.

One well know reviewer of the book found this chapter the most interesting because it dispelled a lot of prevailing beliefs about line arrays.



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