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Home » xyzzy » Dungeon » Ukraine
| Re: Ukraine [message #98176 is a reply to message #98174] |
Mon, 30 December 2024 09:38   |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18832
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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I really don't like talking politics on AudioRoundTable.com 'cause it's easy to get emotional. It's hard to talk about stuff like this on a messageboard. If we were all hangin' out at a local greasy-spoon, we'd definitely hear each other and our mutual respect would show, so we could have different views without taking even the slightest offence. But on messageboards, it's easy to start feeling uncomfortable, even offended. That's why I limit my comments on these subjects, and usually just leave 'em alone.
Please don't feel uncomfortable here. Please take no offense.
Anyway, I did want to chime in about propaganda. I remember when I first went to Odessa, I visited with a lot of people and watched a lot of television there. I realized that the Russian propaganda was almost totally ineffective. Everyone there saw through the rhetoric, and everyone had very good visibility into other cultures, namely American. They knew all our celebrities and personalities, and they followed our culture, styles, trends and politics.
And by the way - when I say "Russian" - I am combining Russians and Ukrainians. I also include Moldovans, Belarussians, Azerbaijanis, Armenians and a bunch of other former-soviet countries. The people of those countries have one thing in common - they love their people and their culture but mistrust and sometimes even hate their governments.
So but I digress. My point is that Russian propaganda is almost completely ineffective at manipulation of their people's minds. Russian people may be afraid of consequences, so they may modify their behavior accordingly and they may not express their true opinions publicly. But that doesn't mean that Russians agree with what they're hearing on the radio or TV, and it certainly doesn't mean they agree with what their government is doing.
I mentally compared that with what I saw in America, and what I still see today. We are conformists here, and we are deeply affected by what we see and hear. We may choose a side to believe in, but once we take that side, we tend to listen only to that side, and we believe everything they say.
On this point, I think we totally agree. We Americans are very good at spin.
Up until maybe 50 or 60 years ago, we believed our media and government officials almost entirely. We all simply conformed to whatever we saw on TV and thought of ourselves as the brave and the true. That's not as true today as it was, say, when Walter Cronkite was on TV. But we Americans still very much think that we have a sort of monopoly on the truth, or at least that our party does.
Not knocking that - not being un-American - but I do realize how easily manipulated we all are here. Even now that we have started to distrust our government officials, we still seem to trust one side. We pick a party and believe them. We rarely listen to the other side. And we also rarely know much about what's going on in any other part of the world.
I'm guilty of all that too.
So I was surprised at how little I truly knew about Russians and how much all of them knew about me. Or rather I should say, I knew very little about their culture and influences and they knew a lot about mine. They knew our movies, our celebrities, our music, our restaurants, our clothing styles and even sometimes knew our sayings. I didn't know a single Russian celebrity, except maybe those that were made famous by the Olympics.
And back to the propaganda - I will say this: I don't listen to anything about Russian/Ukraine relations coming from American television, radio internet podcasts or any other media outlet. I don't listen to either American political side on this issue. Both are completely wrong. I'm amazed at how loud they've all gotten, when just three decades ago, they were all completely silent.
As soon as the Berlin wall fell in 1989, American went totally silent. It was like, "problem solved," nothing to see here. We did nothing. And maybe that's OK. Maybe we shouldn't have. I'm sort of a libertarian in most cases, so I generally like the idea of staying out of other peoples' business.
But then why were we so involved in Korea and Vietnam only to let the slime ooze back in? What was it all for? Why did we not do a better job of embracing former Soviet states like Ukraine in the 1990s? It sure would have been more productive back then. It would have been easier and nicer. But we did nothing. Politicians didn't care and most of the American public didn't even know who they were back then.
Anyway, that's a pointless question. The fact is, that didn't happen. So the slime did ooze back in. Or at least it's trying. I personally think it's worse slime than the Russian people have seen since Stalin.
And most Americans don't know a thing about it. What we're hearing over here - from both political parties - has no relation to reality, whatsoever. It is very clear to me that what we're seeing is opportunistic propaganda designed to advance an opinion that really doesn't even have anything at all to do with Ukraine. One side simply wants to impeach the other, so they blame the other party's position. It's not at all about Ukraine. It's about having some stupid sound-bite. The arguments made by both sides have almost no merit and are a distraction from things that really matter.
We Americans are damn good at propaganda. We can get people all worked up about stuff that isn't even the real point. It works great for getting their focus off of the points that really matter.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #98185 is a reply to message #98183] |
Tue, 31 December 2024 12:24 |
Rusty
Messages: 1247
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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Another thing from Your post Wayne that strikes me. Seemingly from what you say. You say you don't follow anything about the Ukraine conflict. So you don't try to comprehend what, why, and how this all begat? Just the face value of one country invading another? And what is written and spoken about that is all wrong. From any source? Anyone? I'm trying to understand if you base your interpretation from just personal experience. Being you had some contact with that part of the world. To me that would be valid but a very narrow comprehension. A very thin slice of the whole.
Anyway, to me it seems that our personal experiences can't encompass the bigger part of society without some tutelage or investigation. And particularly government and the policies enacted. We vote supposedly for people to carryout the will of the public interest. And from where I'm sitting now, I comprehend a huge disconnect. So, I've tried to investigate why that is. Our economy and our geopolitical stance in the world that contribute to that disconnect. Politics I don't follow with any more interest than a sporting event. Two teams in our system that play offense and defense to control their parties advantage over the other mostly. What comes out of that is compromised that favors the system that gets them elected. Wealth.
I maybe whistling Dixie from what I try and fathom. Maybe it's bunk. I've put some faith I suppose in some people, or influencers you've mentioned as mentors. I guess if they were some yahoo doing a blog or conspiracy podcast ranting unconfirmable diatribe I'd be truly seduced by folly. I seem to think though these people have some merit of experience & integrity without any skin in the game towards being celebrity or financially compensated for their opinions. They're as I, truly concerned with the ways of the world. And they have a fair amount of insight to that bigger picture that's invisible to us ordinary folk. The threads of information seems to fill in the gap that seem as Spock would say, "most illogical".
That's the way I roll anyway. Again, I appreciate, respect you and your intelligent good nature.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #98186 is a reply to message #98185] |
Tue, 31 December 2024 14:53 |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18832
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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I really don't like to talk about this stuff much because I can't do anything about it. So that leaves me with just angry thoughts, which are very unproductive. If I can do something about a thing that concerns me, then I do. But otherwise, I really just want to focus on other things - those that I can do something about.
I can build speakers. I can work on cars. I design good computer equipment and software. I can be a good friend. I can help others, or at least hang out with them.
Those are the things I can do that are productive. Doing them gives me a fairly positive mental outlook, and my "inner dialog" is mostly optimistic. It ain't much, but it's all I can do.
If I don't do them, I find myself focusing on these things I can't do, and becoming kind of pessimistic. I gain a negative "inner dialog." That negative inner dialog is what makes me judge Putin and the novi-russki. I think they're all slime. It isn't even the socialist system - it's them personally. I think of them sort of in a sub-human way, as ugly, selfish and decadent people that are bad for their culture and frankly, bad for the planet.
Now then, I am fairly sure my assessment of them is correct. I wish I could do something about it - to put them all in jail, and to stop the war in Ukraine. Remove them from power. That's what I think. But that's just me.
Same goes for the deal in the "Holy Land." I wish the "People of the Book" would quit fighting among themselves. I wish we could remove every single person that started a fight over there and put them in rehab. Keep 'em there 'til they stopped shooting one another. Make 'em read all of the other holy books, and make them help each other instead of shooting each other.
But I suppose it's the pinnacle of arrogance for me to think any of that.
So I'm gonna go back to my software tasks right now. 
And in the meantime, Happy New Years, my friends!
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| Re: Ukraine [message #98190 is a reply to message #98189] |
Wed, 01 January 2025 08:34 |
Rusty
Messages: 1247
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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Good points by you all. I understand the not being able to do anything aspect. Not dwelling on negative thoughts. Maybe it'll interest you that at the onset of the conflict in Ukraine, I too viewed a slime trail left by Putin and his leadership as repugnant. All the stories about his KGB past, the treachery of his government. The hope that this conflict would vindicate his scheming being his undoing.
I've since modified that thinking totally. Which is why I've brought up propaganda frequently in this thread. Like the problems trying to understand the forces of nature. The forces of human nature are complex too, and woven intricately. Studying this with what only is available on the surface won't give any nuance to what things are all about.
Fortunately this day and age. There are resources literally at your fingertips. From which one can if interested, gain some insight into todays happenings with some greater comprehension. And what may seem obvious on the surface, is a host of factors running just below that point otherwise.
That's what has modified my views. I see a slime trail emanating from elsewhere than the standard consensus. A scheming which isn't consistent with cooperation in this world. Being applied all over in the name of dominance. They call it hegemony in economic terms. It isn't a healthy pursuit.
I've found it to be more liberating than frustrating and negative to gain some understanding of the way things are as they are said to be. I've got plenty of other interests and pursuits. But there are major things in societies planning and administration that effect our way of life that, at least for me, too important to be nonchalant about. Just let er ride. Especially now in my latter years of life. I've got time now, what's left, to try and understand to what end they're being done.
Happy New Years
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| Re: Ukraine [message #98242 is a reply to message #98241] |
Wed, 08 January 2025 15:08 |
Rusty
Messages: 1247
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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"I see plans within plans", said the Guild Navigator from the movie Dune to the Emperor. Frank Herbert's fictional intergalactic treachery politics. Earth is also like what probably is the universal constant in the universe for politics. Treachery, chicanery and self serving motives.
Its always a good thing to follow up on links from The Moon of Alabama. As in the prior article. There are good journalists out there who dig up the dirt that we're living in. Dirt we didn't make. Our elected officials and the powerful "rich", (oligarchs?) that influence our governments.
like the Nord Stream 2 mysterious destruction. Plans within plans.
https://www.thomasfazi.com/p/nord-stream-terrorist-attack-all
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