Home » Audio » Speaker » Heavy-cones verses light-cones in basshorns
Re: Heavy-cones verses light-cones in basshorns [message #18875 is a reply to message #18873] Mon, 28 August 2006 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Higher mass results in a lower resonant frequency if suspension stiffness is the same. That was sort of an implication, but maybe I should have been specific. As to the difference, it is really a matter of tuning. Some guys won't use anything but low-mass, low-Q drivers in basshorns, others want high-mass, loose suspension drivers.


It seems that the problem is the rear chamber [message #18876 is a reply to message #18875] Tue, 29 August 2006 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wunhuanglo is currently offline  wunhuanglo
Messages: 912
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
While in theory you can tune the Fh it seems that you're always up against it on the rear chamber volume. You usually can barely fit the driver in the space, so if you need to raise the Fh you're kind of SOL.

If you're building a tightly folded horn like the LAB horn it seems that Fs really dictates the feasibility of physically constructing the thing. Whenever I play with Hornresp I always get backed into a rear chamber volume that won't accomodate the driver.

Re: It seems that the problem is the rear chamber [message #18878 is a reply to message #18876] Tue, 29 August 2006 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

That's exactly right. The rear chamber volume sets the resonant frequency along with the mass, because rear chamber volume determines overall compliance.

In my basshorn design, I've balanced the rear-chamber and front-chamber with the driver to get better response than the LABhorn, but it does take a pretty small rear chamber to do it. Brad Litz did this too. It's actually slightly larger than what is used in the LABhorn, large enough to build a box around the driver. The frequencies are low enough that everything is pretty large, and even a small rear chamber is big enough to work with.

What's really difficult to work with are rear chamber volumes so small that the box has to contour around the magnet. I run into this with midbass horns. On midrange horns, I'm not usually worried about excursion, so I sometimes design them for open backs or large rear chambers, which act the same. I'm not usually looking for LF from a midrange horn. But midbass horns can potentially have cone excursions that make me want to use reactance annulling with a smaller rear chamber. On those, sometimes the rear chamber size required to do that is so small it's practically a sealed back driver.


Re:On that subject, will there be 9 Pi Bass horn plans soon? nt [message #18880 is a reply to message #18878] Tue, 29 August 2006 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Epstein is currently offline  Bill Epstein
Messages: 1088
Registered: May 2009
Location: Smoky Mts. USA
Illuminati (2nd Degree)


Re:On that subject, will there be 9 Pi Bass horn plans soon? nt [message #18881 is a reply to message #18880] Tue, 29 August 2006 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Yes, plans will be available soon. There's a general description in the post called "Give us the pitch...9π". It's actually a full range system using three horns, a midbass, midrange and tweeter, designed to be used with the 12π basshorn sub.


Re: Heavy-cones verses light-cones in basshorns, yes! [message #18888 is a reply to message #18859] Fri, 01 September 2006 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Danley is currently offline  Tom Danley
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Hi Wayne, all

The advantage / reason for using a massive driver is because for a given bandwidth, the heavier / stronger driver has a different acoustic impedance and requires a higher compression ratio.
A higher compression ratio means more acoustic power for a given cone excursion.
At low frequencies, in horn loading it was usually the case that one runs out of Xmax well before power handling, causing the famous bass horn distortion (like the famous W bin). This was blamed on “throat distortion” but was actually the driver reaching xmax and beyond.
Hence using a heavy driver made sense to me here given the available power capacity and the desire to maximize the “undistorted” output..
The BT-7 horn was aligned with a 3:1 compression ratio, the Lab-12 was only heavy / strong enough to need about a 2:1 compression ratio in a similar bandwidth and low cutoff.
Alternately, if one scales up mentally, one finds the 10:1 compression ratio in a typical compression driver, is needed to get the wide bandwidth from what is (up high) a massive driver also.
Cheers,

Tom Danley



Re: Heavy-cones verses light-cones in basshorns, yes! [message #18889 is a reply to message #18888] Fri, 01 September 2006 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

For a subwoofer basshorn, I would agree. For a midbass, less so. Kind of goes without saying, if you asked me. But I remember the debates you had with the Edgar enthusiasts back a few years ago, and I noticed that the Fitzmaurice designs are similar so I brought it up here. This hasn't been discussed in a while and some have never considered the issues, others have forgotten them.


Re: Heavy-cones verses light-cones in basshorns [message #18898 is a reply to message #18859] Mon, 11 September 2006 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DMoore is currently offline  DMoore
Messages: 58
Registered: May 2009
Location: Seattle
Baron
Don Keele Jr. stated that in order to achieve the widest bandpass that a prospective horn driver should (indicatively) have a Qts below .30, which indicates a strong magnet to moving mass ratio; I'm assuming whether this ratio is achieved by using a "light" cone in relation to the mediocre magnet structure or a "heavy" cone and a really powerful magnet structure, it doesn't matter especially, although theoretically the moving mass component will effect the upper bandpass capability, of course.

I think that boils down to what you want to do with the Fch that determines the appropriate-ness of a driver for your desired application.

Daniel Plach reported that for a front-loaded horn (sealed Vb), the use of a linear motor with a low Fs is desirable, the bandpass being somewhat more limited and subordinate to the efficiency and lower distortion the loading is capable of. He said that the Vb could be practically reactance-annulled (for a Hyperbolic/Exponential flare), the course of which naturally raises the Fs of the driver, and therefore, the driver should start out with an Fs below that of the horns Fc.

He also said that for back-loaded horns, the use of a driver with a rising response curve was in order with Fs above the horns Fc, because it could not be reactance-annulled due to tuning requirements (Fr) of the back chamber usually being much lower than the horn's Fc.

DM



Re: Heavy-cones verses light-cones in basshorns [message #18899 is a reply to message #18898] Mon, 11 September 2006 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

That was my conclusion too. Driver mass, suspension compliance and BL are all tunable parameters that can be used along with rear chamber, front chamber and flare to set a horn for its intended application.

There was some debate about this earlier with Danley championing Leach math and woofers with relatively heavy cones and Edgar prefering Keele math and woofers with lighter cones and stiffer suspensions. I tended to see their arguments as flip sides of the same coin but the debate was on, nonetheless. Seems to have been clarified to everyone's satisfaction now.


Re: Heavy-cones verses light-cones in basshorns [message #18902 is a reply to message #18899] Tue, 12 September 2006 11:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
DMoore is currently offline  DMoore
Messages: 58
Registered: May 2009
Location: Seattle
Baron
Hi, Wayne.

I would assume that a 3-octave limited horn would/could "enjoy" a large-mass driver, i.e., it won't matter whether it has a light cone, because it technically doesn't go high enough in frequency band pass to actually make use of it.

I would also mention that large-mass drivers tend to heat up the VC (comparitively) more than a lighter assembly MIGHT, simply because more energy is required to move the mass, overcoming inertia and all that. In the case of sealed back chambers, this could be a potential design consideration brought about specifically by the choice of driver mass and power handling capability, depending on the application, of course. Large SPL requirements would definitely put this consideration on the designer's plate, I would think.

Personally, I've always regarded large-mass drivers (i.e., heavy cones) to be more appropriate for direct radiator use rather than used as horn drivers. Sort of a bellweather for me in selecting drivers.

In a resistive, pressurized environment such as that presented by a horn throat or more likely, a throat cavity opening, will naturally decrease the cone excursion to a great degree, and hence the potential for cone deformation is severely reduced. I tend to completely discount cone deformation as an important consideration in horns for this reason.

I think the "old guys" had it right the first time. I look for horn drivers with relatively light cones and large BL's and the lower Qts, the better, but then I'm going for 4 octaves or more, too.

Dana

Previous Topic: Time delay revisited
Next Topic: Finally the x-over is hooked up
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sun Nov 24 13:03:43 CST 2024

Sponsoring Organizations

DIY Audio Projects
DIY Audio Projects
OddWatt Audio
OddWatt Audio
Pi Speakers
Pi Speakers
Prosound Shootout
Prosound Shootout
Miller Audio
Miller Audio
Tubes For Amps
TubesForAmps.com

Lone Star Audiofest