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Trooth [message #1011 is a reply to message #1009]

Mon, 25 October 2004 01:54

Mike.e
Messages: 471
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

No truth involved in subjective experience-just one persons enjoyment of a system more than anothers enjoyment.

My system,with cheap speakers in a room of regular acoustics wil exhibit such frequency response errors-i wont even bother adding active EQ such as this until i have a decent system making it worthwhile

Stepping stones.. . . .

Cheers!
Mike.e

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What I can't get my head around is... [message #1012 is a reply to message #1010]

Mon, 25 October 2004 05:08

wunhuanglo
Messages: 912
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (2nd Degree)

doing anything other than making the power response as flat as possible.

My instinct is that, in terms of reproduction, it's appropriate to present what's on the recording (high fidelity with respect to the input). Otherwise it's just tone control - if implemented in hardware (e.g. crossover design) then it's applied across the board to recordings good and bad, making both (again, with respect to fidelity to the source material) inaccurate.

My assumption is that the recording already incorporates the tonal bias of the producer and engineer - am I way off base here?

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Re: What I can't get my head around is... [message #1013 is a reply to message #1012]

Mon, 25 October 2004 05:21

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

You're exactly right. I always make my speaker designs as flat as the components will allow, so I'm with you on that. But I'm also keen on the observation that the Fletcher-Munson curve makes a pretty good basis for loudness contours, which are volume-sensitive tone controls. Many people prefer a little bit of this kind of EQ at moderate listening levels.

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Re: What I can't get my head around is... [message #1014 is a reply to message #1013]

Mon, 25 October 2004 06:45

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

So.. In the final analysis; is it good to design for the type of music or is it good to design flat and take the hit on pop records? That is my original question. People rave about certain designs and you find out they only sound good on certain types of music which was my surprisind experience. But they sound real good on that music; ... not so good on other stuff. I have not seen that issue addressed yet which was the reason for the post.

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Re: What I can't get my head around is... [message #1015 is a reply to message #1014]

Mon, 25 October 2004 07:19

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

As a speaker designer, I strive to make my loudspeakers as flat as possible. No response tailoring, only conjugate filters. And for amplifiers, preamps, whatever, the same rules apply. On a personal level, I also usually disable tone controls. I don't like to use them.

But then again, I agree that our ears are more sensitive to midrange, especially at low levels. The Fletcher-Munson curves are equal loudness contours, and they essentially represent a response curve of our ears. It's a representation of what our hearing does at different frequencies and different volume levels. So preferences in voicing, EQ, etc. may be related to the frequency-energy distribution of whatever is being played and the volume level it is being played at.

Loudness Compensation - Phon Curves

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Re: What I can't get my head around is... [message #1016 is a reply to message #1015]

Mon, 25 October 2004 07:57

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Thats why I like your speakers and from whence the astounding realisation lies. The Pi's ,make my well recorded old Blue Note Jazz albums sound great. What I heard the otther night on those SD speakers that everyone is raving about was a dull, lacking in real musical life sound on those same albums. But on the pop jazz stuff those SD's came alive. That says to me they are designing those speakers for one type of recording and not only does that cause them to be unsuitable for many other types of recordings; it says to me that the whole industry is geared towards creating a tailored sound designed to flatter the efforts of those players and mastering engineers. That says the people who are driving this type of sound are deliberately courting those specific groups who are responsible for this type of sound. Is that a conspiricy theory? Because those SD's do not work with Classical and Jazz music. Thats all.

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Mon, 25 October 2004 08:56

hurdy_gurdyman
Messages: 416
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

This looks like a good place to relate my own experience here at home. I have a pair of old Klipsch Heresy's. I swear I've never hear a speaker that could be more real sounding on many old jazz and folk recordings I have. The presence and natural detail and dynamics are supurb. However, when I play modern recordings, especially pop/rock, they sound thin, almost shrill. Bad sounding harsh, hashy stuff comes out of those old Klipsch on rock music. I've often wondered how a speaker could sound so good with some types of music and be almost unlistenable with other types of music. The reason I went back to my EV open baffles was that they are more listenable with all types of music, even though they never quite come to life the way the Heresy's do on older music. At least they are listenable on all music.
There seems to exist a large gap in what is considered good sounding recordings and what they should be played on between pop music and traditional (especially acoustic) music. At least, that's the way it seems with what I've heard hear at home and when listening informally to a few others systems.

Dave

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Mon, 25 October 2004 10:28

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Wheew! Thank you. It is a really interesting phenomena; how people arrange their listening bias's(I think I got that apostrophe right). It just seems hard to initiate a constructive dialogue that addresses that issue.

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Re: Single driver/single ended/George Brienes/Martin King [message #1019 is a reply to message #999]

Mon, 25 October 2004 12:45

akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (3rd Degree)

HI John,
Great point! My experience is that single driver speakers offer a large midrange bump, and this exaggerates the "presence" of the vocalist who sings in that range as well as instruments that play in that range. I try to tone this down in the interests of fidelity with a Baffle step correction circuit, but i do prefer a little bit of exaggeration. It's all a matter of taste.
Bottom line: if we want total fidelity, then flat freq curve, lowest distortion.
IF we don't care abou tfidelity as measured, (and obviously neither you nor I do, since we both like SETs!) then just go with whatever sounds good to you, and have fun with it.

my 2 cents
-akhilesh

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Re: Single driver/single ended/George Brienes/Martin King [message #1026 is a reply to message #1019]

Mon, 25 October 2004 14:40

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Good to hear from you! Long ago I decided to go with what I like in sound and forget about trying to please some abstract ideal. But I believe that we must explore all philosophies of sound if only to allow for an informed choice. And peoples opinions are interesting and valuable; worth seeking out and discussing. This thing with the SD speakers really floored me, I just could not believe they are so specific to the recording. And to be truthfull I am pissed off that the sound you get from older quality vynill is just unobtainable nowadays and I can't afford to pay rapacious prices for good examples of older recordings; so they are forever out of my reach! Until all the collectors die and no one wants that old stuff in the basement; but then I will be too old to even hear it. Thanks for the reply,J.R.

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