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Re: Taxes; That Seems A Good Topic. [message #58650 is a reply to message #58648]

Wed, 14 June 2006 12:22

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Yes, agreed. I really love the people and quality of life in Odessa, Ukraine, for example. I like the kind of people that I would consider "salt of the earth", what were called Tovarisch there. Those same personalities are found here in America too. I have realized that it is more of a personal thing really, not so much determined by political structures or government. It's purely culteral, mostly personal.

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Ever look at the metrics? [message #58651 is a reply to message #58649]

Wed, 14 June 2006 12:38

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

First of all, Sweden's published unemployment rate is higher than America's. It isn't 4% lower; I don't know where you came up with that number. So even if you look at their own figures, their unemployment rate is higher. Secondly, it is widely recognized as being artificial, that unemployment is actually much higher. The are lots of unemployed that are counted as being employed, simply because government programs for early retirement, sick leave, labor market programs and welfare count these people as employed.

You asked "what's the problem." John, I consider you to be my friend, but where politics are concerned, you and I couldn't disagree more. I would prefer not to have big brother in any of my affairs, you would have them in everything from cradle to grave. So the problem is what you want, I don't.

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Re: Ever look at the metrics? [message #58652 is a reply to message #58651]

Wed, 14 June 2006 12:58

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

I never said their employment rate is 4% lower; I said as of right now their rate hovers around 4%, 4.9% to be exact. Hidden inflated employment data? You think we don't have that same problem? We have the same thing. In the published data retirees and public assistance beneficiaries are not considerd in any country; the same as here. Our rate as of now is 5.6%; thats about a percentage point higher than theirs. The problem I refer to is what is the problem with their version of social support programs; not any problem with you personally.

Oh; who is it that "Widely regards their employment figures to be much different than the stated numbers", I never heard that.

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Re: Taxes; That Seems A Good Topic. [message #58653 is a reply to message #58650]

Wed, 14 June 2006 12:59

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

What does that mean exactly? People in Odessa are somehow better people than other places??

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Re: Taxes; That Seems A Good Topic. [message #58655 is a reply to message #58653]

Wed, 14 June 2006 13:21

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

It means there are good people everywhere. Politics and governments don't do it, people do.

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Re: Ever look at the metrics? [message #58656 is a reply to message #58652]

Wed, 14 June 2006 13:27

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Do a little research. I don't think you'll find a single example of a socialist country with productivity anywhere close to those of capitalist nations. Not that time off isn't valuable too, or that people aren't working too hard in capitalist countries. One could make that case, I'd probably say the same thing. But in a capitalist country, you do have a choice. You can choose to work less and buy less expensive stuff. You don't have to "keep up with the Joneses" or be a "fat capitalist." That's really a moral decision. One can be a Tovarisch in America, and in fact, I'd say most of the middle class is exactly that.

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Re: Ever look at the metrics? [message #58661 is a reply to message #58656]

Wed, 14 June 2006 14:09

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Actually Sweden is a bad example of your theory since their productivity figures since 1999 rival or in some cases exceed our own.
The rest about having a choice; I am not sure if I get what that means. Do you mean you have a choice of whether to work or not?
What is "Moral" about consumer spending?

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Re: Taxes; That Seems A Good Topic. [message #58662 is a reply to message #58655]

Wed, 14 June 2006 14:10

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

People are the government; it isn't some alternative lifeform.

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Re: Taxes; That Seems A Good Topic. [message #58665 is a reply to message #58662]

Wed, 14 June 2006 14:35

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

No. People are not the government. People are people. Organizations are made up of groups of people. That's a completely different dynamic. And national governments are bigger structures still (except in small countries), even in a pure democracy, which America isn't. America is a republic, with a representative form of government. So people are not the government.

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Re: Ever look at the metrics? [message #58666 is a reply to message #58661]

Wed, 14 June 2006 14:41

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Sure thing, John. Wave the flag.

As for choice, of course I have a choice and so do you. You can work at a high paying job with a lot of responsibilities, or you can work at a job that doesn't require as much effort if you're willing to take less pay. If you're trying to defend a position that those who don't work should get paid, well, I can't support that kind of thinking.

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