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Re: Ok here you go... [message #54590 is a reply to message #54589]

Sat, 08 October 2005 14:00

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Well now we have a disagreement that can be resolved. I say the wealthy pay much less in taxes as a percentage of their earnings through all means not just individual income tax filings. See a middle-class guy who earns a wage must pay taxes on all of his income.
A wealthy guy whose income is derived from investments/real estate sales and endowments and entitlements only pays on a small portion of his income. So how can you say that they pay their fair share. If after all of the accounting is done the top 10% earn 90% of the money; but pay only 50% of the taxes what is fair about that?

Why should I pay 30% of my income while they pay 5% of their income?

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Now you change the subject when proven to be incorrect... [message #54593 is a reply to message #54590]

Sat, 08 October 2005 15:46

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

I never said percentage of income. I said the top 5% of income earners pay most of the taxes taken in. Now you change to percentage of income. BTW I do not believe your numbers that the wealthiest pay only 5% of their income in taxes. This is a fabrication.

You're still not talking about Bush's tax cuts and how the tax burden for the wealthiest people increases under them. Why not? Hmm?

This is why it is a waste of time to debate with you. If proven wrong you either don't answer that part of the post or you change the subject.

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Re: Now you change the subject when proven to be incorrect... [message #54594 is a reply to message #54593]

Sat, 08 October 2005 17:41

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Sorry but I have to defend myself here. As I understood our discussion it was a question about who does or doesn't pay their fair share of taxes. After re-reading the thread it still sounds like that to me.
I think if we decided to drop trying to prove a point and instead searched for the real numbers it might be different. I insist that the wealthy pay much less than their share compared to other groups. Is that a better statement of the discussion? I mean why would I care if the top 5% pay 53% of the taxes when they pay a much lower percentage of their income than I do?
Since the top 10% of the income earners make over 60% of the money then why is it fair they pay only 50% of the taxes. I am just asking here; not trying to prove anything.
Again; why should I pay 30% of my income to taxes while the richest 10% pay 8% of their income to the govt? That is my point; the unfairness of it.
You are in the same boat; you should be angry also.

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Re: Now you change the subject when proven to be incorrect... [message #54596 is a reply to message #54594]

Sat, 08 October 2005 19:49

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

You still have not responded to Bush's tax cuts and that the rich are paying more under them. So I must assume you agree with Bush's tax cuts. After all they are achieving the very thing you are complaining about. A simple, "I was wrong about Bush's tax cuts" would be the appropriate thing for you to post now.

And yes, you have changed the subject. The only thing I am angry about is that the rich pay most of the taxes. They are being hosed. And no I am not even close to being rich. Why is it fair that most of the people in the country only contribute 4 or 5 percent of the money it costs to run the country? I do not believe your numbers. Prove to me that the richest in the country only pay 8% of their income to taxes. If you can't prove this point then it's only your opinion and not fact.

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Re: Now you change the subject when proven to be incorrect... [message #54597 is a reply to message #54596]

Sun, 09 October 2005 00:51

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

O'Kay but it will take me a day to provide the numbers and the Bush tax cuts favored the wealthy. We shall see. But don't bail on me if I go to this trouble to get the figures. Thats all I ask.
And reading the thread agian all I see is you pushing the Bush thing; I don't care about that since I already knew what those cuts did.
So by tommorrow evening the figures will be available.

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Re: Now you change the subject when proven to be incorrect... [message #54600 is a reply to message #54597]

Sun, 09 October 2005 08:26

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

The document from the treasury clearly states and shows that with the Bush tax cuts the wealthy will pay more taxes. Do you deny this? Do you have other evidence to the contrary?

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Re: Now you change the subject when proven to be incorrect... [message #54601 is a reply to message #54600]

Sun, 09 October 2005 10:38

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

I'm working on it. You can follow my progress at IRS.Gov they have all the statistics there can possibly be all laid out. There is a section that breaks down all revenue collected through personal income tax by percentage of wealth and income per capita. Then it breaks down who has the most wealth and what percentage of that wealth is taxed. But it is time consuming to wade through it all. I had to do it in Taxes and Finance class in Business school and it sucked then and sucks now.
But the truth is in the tables.

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You have to be realistic.. [message #54602 is a reply to message #54601]

Sun, 09 October 2005 12:26

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

The income tax fact sheet from the US treasury web site was compiled by the U.S. Treasury, Office of Tax Analysis using the Internal Revenue Services as a source. I would have to believe that the professionals at the U.S. Treasury who work in the Office of Tax Analysis would know how to compile the numbers properly. So what makes you think that you would know better than these profession tax analyzers? Or are you saying they are lying?

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Re: You have to be realistic.. [message #54603 is a reply to message #54602]

Sun, 09 October 2005 13:46

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

The part you don't see is that the top 10% of the population pays tax as a percentage much less than the middle 30% does. You have to examine the data to see that.
Thats what I tried to show in the last post. While the top 5% pay 50% of the taxes the IRS takes in; they make almost 40% of the income as a whole. Since the income as a whole is only a small percentage of GNP the reality is they pay much less for much more. So in simple math they pay as a percentage much less per person than all of the members of the middle class does per person.
Thats wrong.
You look beyond the numbers on your site to see the real amounts involved; because the numbers are mis-leading. Since the bottom 30% pay no taxes because they make no money that leaves the largest part of the burden on the middle 30%. While the site you show is accurate in terms of the actual percentage numbers it does not reflect the amounts of money and percentages of tax each slice of the pie pays.

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Re: You have to be realistic.. [message #54604 is a reply to message #54603]

Mon, 10 October 2005 12:41

Mr Vinyl
Messages: 407
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

Again you just state numbers with no back up. But assuming what you are saying is true (a huge leap of faith here) let's look at it closely.

If the top 5% of wage earners pay 50% of the taxes taken in. And they make 40% of the income. That would mean that the remaining 95% of wage earners make 60% of the income and pay only 50% of the taxes taken in. So using your numbers, the top 5% of wage earners are paying more then the bottom 95% of wage earners. Thus even using your numbers you are proving my point. And let's not forget the fact that much of the taxes that the rich are paying are funneled back out to the poor through entitlements, which results in the poor paying even less tax.

Again I don't agree with your numbers. But let's stay on point! The thing you are supposed to be showing me is that the wealthiest people only pay 5%-8% in income taxes. This is what you stated and what you are supposed to be proving.

On top of this you are also suppose to be disproving the fact that the Bush tax cuts actually resulted in the rich paying more taxes and not less as you complain about, the "so called" tax cuts for the rich.

So I will be waiting for your responses.

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