| Dipoles [message #2074] |
Sun, 07 August 2005 16:51  |
Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (13th Degree) |
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Lot of talk about SD/horns/BR/DR, how come no one does Dipole speakers?
I mean if you plan on using a sub anyway then why not do away with those boxes from 70 hz up? Power is cheap now so that isn't a problem.
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| Re: Dipoles [message #2081 is a reply to message #2076] |
Wed, 10 August 2005 16:53  |
hurdy_gurdyman
Messages: 416
Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (1st Degree) |
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manualblock, Could you please give a bit more description of what you mean by "prescence". I'm not quite sure if I know what you are refering to. Dave 
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| Re: Dipoles [message #2084 is a reply to message #2083] |
Wed, 10 August 2005 21:23 |
hurdy_gurdyman
Messages: 416
Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (1st Degree) |
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OK, I think I understand what you mean by "presence" now. I do find, in my own experience, that OB's have a very natural sound that reminds me of live music, probably related more to the big soundstage than anything else. I've heard good presence in other types of speakers, of course. My own little PA speakers, EV Sx100's have a good sense of presence, but lack the big soundstage. I've heard a lot of "standard" type home speakers by the better known mass market makers that have very little "presence". However, I've heard "presence" in a few rather modest priced mass market speakers (vintage ones). I haven't decided yet just what it is that makes some speakers seem to sound more like live music, more "presence", while other speakers have very little. It doesn't appear to be a flat response thing, as some of the better sounding speakers I've heard aren't real flat, though some are. It doesn't seem to be a particular type of box design, as I've heard good and bad examples of all of them. Not a particular type of driver, either. I guess it's probably, in part, a synergy thing where everything just comes together and the sum is greater than the parts. Been thinking this one over for years and still haven't found all the answers yet. However, I must be gaining. I'm getting better sound the last few years than all the earlier years I spent with all kinds of equipment. At the rate I'm gaining, I figure I'll have a system that sounds just like live music about the time old age makes me deaf.  Dave
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| Re: Dipoles [message #2085 is a reply to message #2084] |
Thu, 11 August 2005 07:48 |
Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (13th Degree) |
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Yes; the age related thing is a club we are all members of. Maybe thats why you are getting that better sound. I agree completely concerning the mass market speakers; they sound two dimensional and flat. In my life experience I have witnessed the sharpening and detailing of sound from the audio speaker design front. What I haven't heard is the genuine musically natural sound that many of the really good speakers built during the period 20-30 yrs ago when the big name designers like Spencer Hughes etc were working. I think the modern fetish with high resolution measuring devices used without the personality that those old masters had, ( who BTW mostly were musicians themselves), is responsible for the clinically defined lifeless sound many of todays speakers exhibit. In all these yrs there still is nothing that will signifigantly play music better than a pair of Snell type A III's, or Spendor SP 1's. Makes you wonder.
When I was young on the block I grew in, every family had one of those old console stereo's. And you could hear that music in the evenings when dad's came home from work or on Sundays after dinner. Montovani, The Browns, Jerry Vale for the Italians; the Irish had the Clancy Brothers; the occasional wild wife who liked Elvis. They were rolled off and soft and flabby,(the stereo's I mean),( and some of the people too.) but they certainly had a sound that was nice to listen too. They had prescence. Up and Down the block now they have home theater, so you get to hear helicopters crashing with massive sub-sonics ruining your ears.
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| Re: Dipoles [message #2088 is a reply to message #2085] |
Thu, 11 August 2005 10:22 |
hurdy_gurdyman
Messages: 416
Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (1st Degree) |
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Yeah, I had several old consoles when I was in my teens (had a few recently I bought for the speakers.) They always sounded musical and could be listened to all day without fatigue. You could hear the shortcomings, like rolled off treble, no deep bass and a box boom around 80 Hz, but these were easy to overlook when the music sounded so good. Sometimes I find myself missing those console days when music was such an effortless joy to really listen to all day. Maybe that's part of the reason I am currently listening to 1959 speakers on open baffles with paper cone tweeters and using a 1964 tube amp to drive them. I do cheat, however, by using a ss powered sub. A little story:
When I was 17 (almost 18), I bought my first new component system (Pioneer ss integrated amp and Pioneer Project 100 air suspension speakers with 10" woofers and cloth dome tweeter.) When I first fired it up, I can still remember the feeling of hearing more treble and bass, with real DEEP bass, than I'd ever heard before. I was lost in this for about 15 minutes or so when I distinctly remember a slight discontented feeling that haunted me for a few years. Something about the music wasn't quite right anymore, but I couldn't put a finger on what it was. That easy, relaxed feeling wasn't there anymore. The music now drew attention to itself, where before it was just "there", sounding like just it belonged there. Reading, and believing the popular stereo mags at the time, I upgraded a couple of times. The sound chaged (usually for the better, but not always), but still lacked something. This happened in the mid 70's. In the early eighties, I had a small pair of AR speakers (AR 28b). A friend gave me an old mono utility amp (6V6 PP design). I hooked this up to one of my AR's and sit there with my jaw hanging. The highs were a bit rolled off and the lows just a bit warmer, but the MUSIC was coming through. This started my quest for speakers that liked tube amps, and better tube amps. In a way, I've been moving back toward the systems of my youth, but trying to correct their faults without harming the musical magic. I've discovered that some speakers just plain sound their best with ss, others with tubes. The ones I'm happiest with tend to be consisting of rather efficient wide range drivers crossed high to a tweeter, and using a powered sub for the deep bass. Since I went back to the open baffle (similar to the open back console speakers but without the boom resonance), I've been the happiest. It's been quite a journey, but it looks like the round trip is almost done, as I'm right back where I started, only on a higher quality level. I'm pretty happy with what I'm listening to now. Good presence and musicality. BTW, I still prefer LP's over CD's for their shear musicallity, in spite of LP's shortcomings. Just wish the music I liked the best was being produced more on LP's. Dave
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