Home » Audio » General » Beliefs
Beliefs [message #1586] Wed, 04 May 2005 12:57 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
You know we study engineering and call it a discipline composed of facts determined by data leading to formulae that can predict and control forces; and yet we talk about "beliefs" and What we "believe". Odd.
If someone designs the best piece of equipment; then there is no need for anything else. Therefor there should be only one or maybe allowing for differing room and environmental situations two or three designs currenttly in production. Funny how the road is littered with countless designs that purported to be "better". While certain great sounding old speakers just keep chugging along; totally based on individuals accrueing a sense that they have a rightness to their sound independant of all principles of proper testing or data-based analysis.

Sorry, but newer is better...... [message #1588 is a reply to message #1586] Wed, 04 May 2005 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
Messages: 1349
Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Just sit that worthless tube crap and those big old ugly speakers of yours out by the curb. I'll do you favor and get rid of it for you, and I won't even charge for hauling it off......Colin

Re: Sorry, but newer is better...... [message #1590 is a reply to message #1588] Wed, 04 May 2005 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
What a guy! Your a legend in your own mind. 35 yrs ago this stuff was everybodies headache filling up the garage while their shiny new Pioneer recievers they brought back from the far east while serving in Viet Nam stacked up in their living room blasting the neighbourhood with that SS screech. Perfect measurement though. Vanishingly low distortion. I swear thats what killed Hi-Fi in America; they just don't realise it.
When I was a kid every house on the block had a console tube stereo that may have been boomy and slow as a result of the crummy cabinets but still sounded like music. By 1973 everyone dumped them and jumped on the bandwagon. By 1977 nobody listened except teenagers.
On garbage night there would be several of those old consoles and the empty boxes from the Japanese light show models at the curb up and down the block.

Colin was kidding, John [message #1592 is a reply to message #1590] Wed, 04 May 2005 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
Messages: 1275
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
I'll raise you one up. Not only will I not charge you like Colin, but i'll actually give you a few dollars for each tube amp that works. What say you?
-akhilesh

Re: Sorry, but newer is better...... [message #1593 is a reply to message #1588] Wed, 04 May 2005 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Say C-man; whats the scoop? Any news your way? I see on the Joe list he is selling off some old horns and stuff pretty cheap too. I didn't go through the whole list but there are some goodies there.

Re: Sorry, but newer is better...... [message #1596 is a reply to message #1593] Wed, 04 May 2005 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
colinhester is currently offline  colinhester
Messages: 1349
Registered: May 2009
Location: NE Arkansas
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Thanks for the heads up. Do you have the URL? I seem to have filed it somewhere and cannot find it......Colin

Re: Colin was kidding, John [message #1599 is a reply to message #1592] Wed, 04 May 2005 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
AK; I knew that. You can't have the tube stuff; Peter Aczel would not approve. And they're not on the Sensibel Sounds recommended best buy list. BTW; right now I am listening to the GainClone on the Altecs and the T-amp on the Pi Theater 4's. That SS stuff; it's just so easy to use. The T-Amp BTW sounds darned good on those Valencias; imagine a 25$ amp on those speakers.
Anyone who might be interested I have just completed the ESP Death of Zen pre-amp. I will be taking it out for a trial run next week as I am still waiting for one pair of BC 559 transistors that mouser failed to include in my order.
BTW your boy looks just like you!

Re: Beliefs [message #1602 is a reply to message #1586] Wed, 04 May 2005 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Martin is currently offline  Martin
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
"If someone designs the best piece of equipment; then there is no need for anything else. Therefor there should be only one or maybe allowing for differing room and environmental situations two or three designs currenttly in production."

Sorry, can't agree with that theory. But lets say for the sake of arguement that Brand X amplifier is perfect. And lets say that speaker Brand Y is a perfect speaker and a perfect match for Brand X amp. And lets go one step further, the local high end emporium has the perfect room for this system of perfect components. I bet if we both went in and listened we would hear different things and describe different strengths and weaknesses. Each one of us has different hearing and even worse our personal tastes are probably different. In conclusion, I don't think that any one brand or type of equipment will ever be judged the best by everybody.

Martin
(an engineer who strongly believes in math, science, measurements, and simulations for engineering speaker designs)


Re: Beliefs [message #1605 is a reply to message #1602] Wed, 04 May 2005 18:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Good reply Martin; thanks. However(There's always a but!) I do strongly believe in a standard of sound that can be recognised and appreciated by the many verses the concept that each piece of equipment will be judged by individuals requiring an individual conclusion that assigns a measure of quality unique to that piece.
I can't get past the fact that musical instruments and musicians,(I think I remmember you play, is that correct?), are designed and forged through training by ear. Master Stradivari built his Violin w/o the use of waterfall plots or frequency response graphs.
I am not trying to be coy here; but what is the explanation for the universal aknowledgement of excellence of his instruments? Its a lot of people agreeing they excel through listening to them, all coming to the same conclusion.
The argument expressing the need to hear what the composer intended; not what the equipment does for the music begs the question; since the recording process distorts any and all attempts at perfect reproduction from the moment the sound touches the recording device.
Thanks for engaging in this discussion; I think it is the only reason to participate in audio.
You're still up in Albany right?

Re: Beliefs [message #1607 is a reply to message #1605] Wed, 04 May 2005 18:35 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Martin is currently offline  Martin
Messages: 220
Registered: May 2009
Master
"However(There's always a but!) I do strongly believe in a standard of sound that can be recognised and appreciated by the many verses the concept that each piece of equipment will be judged by individuals requiring an individual conclusion that assigns a measure of quality unique to that piece."

If you assemble a good system, it probably does 90% of the things needed to reproduce music correctly. Most people would listen to it and be thrilled if they had the system in their home. Getting better then 90% is difficult and may require extreme efforts and probably some significant expense. I have had people come to my house and be blown away. Comments like "Now I understand why you enjoy listening to music.".

I have also had a golden ear or two come to my house and offer criticisms. I accept criticism but only if one strength is mentioned for each negative. In that format, the negatives sound fairly trivial. I don't claim that my system is perfect or even truely great, but I do believe that it has the potential to be appreciated by all levels of audio enthusiast. My system is also different from other people's systems, and they can also be enjoyable.

I once got a very interesting comment fomr a real audio unenthusiast, my wife. She claims not to hear the benefits of my efforts and is totally not interested. We were in a hifi store once looking for a set of chep headphones for work and the salesman insisted on showing us his top of the line set of speakers. I was not very impressed and was polite, my wife told him they sounded like crap.

"I can't get past the fact that musical instruments and musicians,(I think I remmember you play, is that correct?), are designed and forged through training by ear. Master Stradivari built his Violin w/o the use of waterfall plots or frequency response graphs.
I am not trying to be coy here; but what is the explanation for the universal aknowledgement of excellence of his instruments? Its a lot of people agreeing they excel through listening to them, all coming to the same conclusion."

Nope, don't play. How many instruments do you think he made that sounded bad, then so so, then pretty good, and then perfection? He probably learned by trial and error and a natural understanding of what he was after firmed up through experimenting. When you engineer a speaker you are trying to get 80% or 90% of it right through computer simulation. Same method, just no sawdust.

"The argument expressing the need to hear what the composer intended; not what the equipment does for the music begs the question; since the recording process distorts any and all attempts at perfect reproduction from the moment the sound touches the recording device.
Thanks for engaging in this discussion; I think it is the only reason to participate in audio."

In my opinion, reproducing recorded music will never ever be as good as a live performance. It is an illusion only. The goal is to get certain aspects right so that it is close enough to be enjoyed. Close enough to enjoy is a very personal definition.

"You're still up in Albany right?"

Yup, a few miles north of Albany.

Martin


Previous Topic: November 2005 Vacuum Tube Valley Southern California Audio Festival
Next Topic: Components beliefs
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Mon Dec 23 09:09:15 CST 2024

Sponsoring Organizations

DIY Audio Projects
DIY Audio Projects
OddWatt Audio
OddWatt Audio
Pi Speakers
Pi Speakers
Prosound Shootout
Prosound Shootout
Miller Audio
Miller Audio
Tubes For Amps
TubesForAmps.com

Lone Star Audiofest