Following is a list of statements by you and myself. This is just to recap the debate. They are basically in order of when they were said. Note that you were going to show how the wealthiest people in the country pay only 5%-8% in income tax (when shelters etc are added in). This was never shown. You were also going to show how the Bush tax cuts were for the wealthy. Other than showing some numbers that you refuse to link to from supposedly the IRS site that I can't find, about Bush's cuts in the capital gains tax. No verifying numbers were shown. BTW the site I referenced said when "all" of Bush's tax cuts were taken into account the rich pay more in taxes. They weren't talking about just one of his tax cuts. You have repeatedly refused to link to any information you talk about. Why? I have glanced through the IRS.gov web site and can't find any of the numbers you talk about (I'm not saying they are not there. Just I can't find them). So just link to them and show me. What's so hard about that? Highlight some copy and paste it in your post. What's so hard about that? Why should I have to spend time looking up numbers that you say are there. If you are reading them and talking about them and have already found them why not provide a link? All of that said the bottom line is this. The wealthy pay almost all of the taxes to run the country. Whether or not it is of a less percentage of their income or not (I don't believe it is a lesser percent) the fact remains that a small handful of people are paying almost all of the money to run the country. This is not fair by any means. IMO. You can play with the numbers all you want. But making the top 25% of income earners pay nearly 83 percent of the income tax burden, and the top 10 percent pay 65 percent can not be fair.

ManualBlock states:
However due to the Republicans passing the Alternative Minimum Tax bill we now have the priviledge of paying the same tax as someone with twice the income.

Fact:
The Alternative Minimum Tax was created in 1978 when Carter was President and the Democrats controlled congress. So how is it something the Republicans pushed through?

ManualBlock's response - NONE

Mr Vinyl states: that the top 5% pays most of the taxes taken in.

ManualBlock's reponse
And you are very mistaken regarding the tax statement. Look it up in the reports of the Internal Revenue System; not some right wing blog.

Mr Vinyl - I looked up the information and posted links and pasted portions of a site from the US Treasury. That site used the IRS numbers as a source and it showed I was correct. Later you call this site a "suspect source". If this is a "suspect source" then nothing would be acceptable.

Your response was to change the statement to a percentage of money earned. Thus ignoring my original comment and changing the subject. Ok, maybe a misunderstanding but you should read more carefully then. I think when you realized I was correct you tried to change my comments to something they weren't. But I still thought you were incorrect on both counts anyway so I continued.

ManualBlock Reponds to the web site saying the Bush tax cuts hurt the rich and helped the poor.
O'Kay but it will take me a day to provide the numbers and the Bush tax cuts favored the wealthy.

This still hasn't been proven. No numbers were shown. Only a vague pointing to IRS site with no links or pastes. (see my comments about this above)

ManualBlock states the following, No proof shown at all.
The part you don't see is that the top 10% of the population pays tax as a percentage much less than the middle 30% does.

ManualBlock states the following, No proof shown at all.
Since the bottom 30% pay no taxes because they make no money that leaves the largest part of the burden on the middle 30%.

ManualBlock states: (Note here is where you agree that the web site I provided shows accurate percentages.)
While the site you show is accurate in terms of the actual percentage numbers it does not reflect the amounts of money and percentages of tax each slice of the pie pays.

ManualBlock states the following, No proof shown at all. (Forbes was one of it's biggest proponents. He ran for president on this. That's just one example)
The wealthy do not want the flat tax; they are the people responsible for defeating that concept everytime it comes up in the debate

ManualBlock states:
The next proof is that the wealthiest 10% pay less than they did ten years ago per capita and that the middle class under Bush pays more than the wealthiest 10%.

Mr Vinyl States:
10 years ago Bush wasn't president. So if you want to prove Bush's tax cuts were for the rich then you can only go back to when Bush became President and signed into law the tax cuts. I think this was 2001. That said the site referenced clearly says that the wealthiest are paying more.

ManualBlocks response - None

ManualBlock states: The Only example supposedly backing this up is your next statement.
The Bush administration has been a dfisaster for the middle class and now:

ManualBlock States (about Bush cutting capital gains) - No proof shown at all. Again just numbers stated. No links provided. (See my opening remarks regarding this)
Most American housholds (89%) earned 70% of their income from work and only 10% of their income from capital gains. For the top ten percent of taxpayers the situation is reversed; they make only 10% of their income from work and 70% from capital gains.

ManualBlock states the following , No proof shown at all.
Of the top 400 the total tax paid equaled 27% of their income. For all the rest total taxes paid; and remmember that includes Federal;State and Local taxes equaled 41% of their income. Thats 41% for the rest and 27% for the wealthy.

Mr Vinyl responds:
now we are up to 27% that is a far cry from the 5%-8% you claim the rich pay in income taxes.

Manual Block Responds: No proof shown at all. No numbers ever provided.
The 8% comes from income generated but not taxed. That will be shown.

ManualBlock states the following , No proof shown at all.
Rich people don't contribute to 401k's so thats immateriall.

ManualBlock states (this is not true. The site I provided says no such thing)
Those figures MR Vinyl show's on the site he uses has the 128k yearly salary as the top brackett; which of course is rediculous to use in describing what makes someone rich.

ManualBlock states again: (not so. A lie repeated often does not make it true. Our discussion started with me saying that the rich pay most of the taxes which I have proven they do)
But our discussion began as whether the rich pay their fair share of taxes; not whether they pay more than the poor or middle class.

Where did I say the rich don't have shelters and use them?
You haven't described what they are. Please show me that.

You say: "You continue to insist that one page of charts tells the whole tax story; when you know thats not possible."

One page of charts shows everything that is needed for this discussion. It was made by the US treasury to show the exact thing that I am trying to prove to you. That is that the wealthiest pay almost all of the taxes. That's why all the info is there. If you can prove any of wrong please do but show where you got the info from with a link or cut and paste.

"The 128k figure is listed prominently on the IRS.Gov site under tax rates percapita."

This is not what you said. You said it came from the site I provided. Also I can find no such heading on the www.irs.gov web site. Show me.

"How can I respond responsibly when I offer you an example and you disregard it claiming you can't find that site..which is the first listing on google for IRS. "

I can find IRS.gov site. I cannot find the info you claim is coming from there. How can I respond to you if I can find the info you claim comes from that site? Cut and paste show me. Paste a link.

"It appears no one gives a shit anyway which is sad because other than Bill we could have some input into something of value. This is too much work just to refute one guy's opinion."

This is the problem. It's not my opinion. I backed up my statements. You back up yours.

"I ask you give a response to the facts of the top 400 and what they pay in taxes. If you do that I can continue; but as of now it seems you ain't listening to anything I say."

See above.

"I even broke my own rule and linked it for you."

Which link was that? I didn't see any. Or are you now speaking of the link you posted from the non IRS site?

"Under Bush we the middle class are paying in total of all taxes more than ever and the rich pay less; the rich being those whose income; as I showed exceeds the top 1% of earners."

Not true see above.

"Can you explain the 10% of earned income VS the 70% of capital gains and how lowering the capital gains rate has resulted in the rich getting much better return on their money than the middle class; thats an easy one and we both agree on the rate so what gives?"

Yes, again look above.