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Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60558] Sun, 09 August 2009 07:20 Go to next message
AudioFred is currently offline  AudioFred
Messages: 377
Registered: May 2009
Location: Houston
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Houston, we have a problem. Our oldest high end audio store, and one of only two that displays two-channel gear in a city of 4 million inhabitants, Audio Concepts, closed its doors last month. Almost everybody likes music and listens to it regularly in their car. Many listen on their computers or their iPods, but few are buying even mass market home audio equipment, and almost none are buying high end equipment.

My solution to this problem is very simple, it's just not the solution most audiophiles (or any high end audio dealers) want to hear: Let people hear what high end can sound like on my audiophile system, then help them choose the compoenents they can afford to build a mass market system.

Some ideas I've considered, but which I believe are not practical for non-audiophiles, are:

1) Building a high end system from scratch. Few people, even those with lots of disposable income, aren't willing to spend the $1.5K minimum needed to buy even an entry level system.

2) Buying used equipment. Non-audiophiles know nothing about what brands are good, what works together, etc. Also, they have no experience with used audio equipment and would be concerned about getting ripped off.

3) DIY. Not a practical alternative for somebody with no knowledge or skills.

One idea that may be viable is to start with whatever they are now using as a source, such as an iPod or a computer, and build a system around that.

What do you think?
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60559 is a reply to message #60558] Sun, 09 August 2009 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob Brines is currently offline  Bob Brines
Messages: 186
Registered: May 2009
Location: Hot Springs Village, AR
Master
Fred, I'm with you!

Of course, my speakers are a bit above your price point -- $825 for what I consider "entry level", but the basic point remains. Plugging decent speakers in ANY consumer grade amp gives pretty good sound.

The problems with the decreasing audio market are:

1. Since the advent of TV, Internet and computer games, very few people either have the time or are willing to take the time to set down for an hour and listen to music.

2. When people listen to music it is in the car or on the iPod. This sound is the standard the Hi-Fi is measured against.

3. Current pop music sounds horrible on ANY system. However, it sounds worse on a good system. Have you tried to listen to any of this crap on your 2-channel? The guy in the street listens to current pop crap on a good system and comes to the conclusion that it is the SYSTEM that is bad.

4. Americans are driven by price. Quality is irrelevant. Given the choice between quality and price, the average consumer will choose price every time.

Fortunately, there will always be a few people that will listen to music. They are out there. As the high end stores continue to close, more and more of these folks are forced to take a gamble on Internet shops like me. In fact, business is starting to pic up. I have two orders in hand at this moment.

Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60560 is a reply to message #60559] Sun, 09 August 2009 08:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AudioFred is currently offline  AudioFred
Messages: 377
Registered: May 2009
Location: Houston
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Bob Brines wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 08:00
Fred,
Fortunately, there will always be a few people that will listen to music. They are out there. As the high end stores continue to close, more and more of these folks are forced to take a gamble on Internet shops like me. In fact, business is starting to pic up. I have two orders in hand at this moment.



I agree the internet is the future of high end audio. A few residence-based sellers may also survive.

I also agree (if I understood you correctly) that the speakers are the most important variable in the audio chain. It's not that the other components don't matter, but that the minimum needed to get good sounding speakers is greater than the minimum needed to get acceptable electronic components. If a friend told me he has a mass market DVD player, HT receiver, zip cord cables, and generic speakers, and he has a $1K budget for to upgrade his system, I would recommend he spend the full $1K on upgrading his speakers.

Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60561 is a reply to message #60558] Sun, 09 August 2009 09:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shane is currently offline  Shane
Messages: 1117
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
As someone who enjoys the high end gear, but could never justify spending a lot, I think I fall into a middle category. When I bought my first "system" back when I was a freshman in high school, I bought a set of speakers before I even had any other components. I bought the best sounding ones to me that I could afford, then 6 months later got a receiver and listened to radio for 6 more months before I got a cassette deck, then a CDP as they were coming out. None of my gear is even remotely high end. The 12B4 Abraxas amp is probably the closest. I've got some Carver, Kenwood (70's), and some NAD SS gear as well. Then the DIY stuff which is entry level stuff. Generic cables and IC's. My NAD stuff goes into some little Polk Audio bookshelves for the living room and they sound quite nice for what they are.

We only have two stereo shops here in Amarillo, and neither carries very high end stuff. One Mac, the other B&W and such. You mention tubes or a turntable and they start to reminisce about the good old days. I bought a 1/2 dozen LP's at a city wide garage sale yesterday and the guy asks me if I collect them (he had several 1000 there). I told him that I play them, not collect them. He didn't even know they still made equipment to utilize vinyl. They were all his albums and he said he couldn't play them anymore as his TT had died 20 years ago. So there is unawareness even among those that listened to music.

I don't discount the sound of an IPod. If you put lossless music on one and run it through a good head-amp using the LOD connection into good cans, it can rival any high end stereo rig in my opinion. Unfortunately that is a small section of the population that uses that kind of setup. Dedicated they are, though. People just tend to discount headphone listening all together which is too bad. Because I can get into a complete headphone rig for less than $1K that is very nice.

Current pop music is made to be played through earbuds and factory car systems and is compressed to death. Some car systems sound phenomenal if done right. One of the best sounding systems, home or car, I've ever heard was the Clarion salesman's car system. He used 4 6.5" speakers individually amped for the low end, then a few mids and tweeters throughout the car. Not the boomy bass most go for, but a tight, quick bass that when eq'd through a digital setup was very balanced and "correct". He probably had about $3K in it. There is a very visceral feeling to listening to a hard rock CD in a car that is quite similar to being at the concert. One of the reasons I appreciate a good car setup.

But there is a lot of badly recorded music. There is an awful lot of poorly recorded classical music, especially anything "live". Sounds like it's coming from another room around the corner with a door shut. Now not all is that way, but most of the stuff I've heard is, which is one reason I can't get into it as much as I would like.

I think the small shows like LSAF give the public an opportunity to hear what can be done, and Fred's room showed that you don't need a lot of money to get good sound. I guess I'll never have a decent system as I can't bring myself to spend $3-5K on audio gear. Mortgages, car payments, and kids take care of that Smile

Well, I've rambled on and lost the point all together.
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60562 is a reply to message #60561] Sun, 09 August 2009 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I started off with an absolute need to keep costs down. My first speakers were an attempt to get good sound on a budget. That's how the smaller speakers in my line were born. After that, I wanted to do some price-no-object models, and my larger speakers and cornerhorns were a result. Still not expensive by audiophile standards, but they do incorporate a whole lot more engineering than many loudspeakers on the market. So I guess, in a way, all my speakers are about value. That's what counts, in my opinion, no matter the price tag.

Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60566 is a reply to message #60562] Sun, 09 August 2009 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AudioFred is currently offline  AudioFred
Messages: 377
Registered: May 2009
Location: Houston
Illuminati (1st Degree)
I believe most who are into high end audio today started with a mass market system and upgraded over time as I did. So I believe it's a good thing to encourage non-audiophiles to buy mass market components, but this is something most audiophiles don't want to hear. However, when somebody's budget is $400 it's a choice between mass market and nothing. Eventually, as their spending cababilites grow they'll be back for something better.
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60567 is a reply to message #60561] Sun, 09 August 2009 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AudioFred is currently offline  AudioFred
Messages: 377
Registered: May 2009
Location: Houston
Illuminati (1st Degree)
Shane wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 09:55
My NAD stuff goes into some little Polk Audio bookshelves for the living room and they sound quite nice for what they are.



Sometimes audiophiles are too quick to dismiss the quality of budget brands like NAD, Cambridge Audio, etc. It's all a matter of where you're coming from. If you listen to $10K components it won't sound very good, but if you're listening to an Insignia receiver like the one I had at the LSAF it will sound very good. A friend has B&W standmount speakers driven by an Onkyo receiver, and when I loaned him an NAD integrated to try with them he was surprised by the improvement. Then another Houston Audio Society friend loaned him an expensive pair of monoblocks and preamp, and he was ruined for life. Laughing
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60570 is a reply to message #60558] Mon, 10 August 2009 09:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SteveBrown is currently offline  SteveBrown
Messages: 330
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
I have pondered the same thing. My wife just got an Itouch, and she and her daughter loaded it up with all kinds of music, she loves it. Now consider that she generally will not spend more than 10 minutes listening to serious music on a good system (like mine). She is even content to play music from the itouch on the internal speaker, yes, it sounds worse than a tin can! Why? Well, I guess because it is easy and it is the music she likes. It reminds me of a similar stuggle I've had when in the 80's I had my own photo studio. People would call and ask why my prices were 4x as much as the JC Penny Portrait studio. My response was, if you can't tell the difference, go to Penney's. I think we've gotten to a point as a society where people just don't really care all that much about the quality. Oh there will always be some, but it is a small crowd. One more experience to relate! My wife and I like good wines. When we first moved to Columbus 4years ago she was invited to a neighborhood Pampered Chef party so she took one of our few bottles of very nice wine we had brough from an Oregon vineyard. Our neighbor served it with ice and 7-up. I could have cried.
Re: Why the lack of interest in high end audio these days [message #60586 is a reply to message #60558] Tue, 11 August 2009 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CAspeakerman is currently offline  CAspeakerman
Messages: 7
Registered: August 2009
Location: California
Esquire
Hello all...

This is long... there is a lot involved with this topic.

Having watched and participated in the rise... peak... and now fall of the public 's interest in high end audio, I have several personal observations to interject here.

Demographics are the first thing that I think are a large part of this. As in the baby boomer generations numbers exaggerating the whole cycle. One could write a book... but I think most of us understand what the relationship has been with out listing it all here.

Competing technologies... In the 60's when high end was transitioning from a very exclusive ... limited specialty item to mainstream... electronically there was radio (FM stereo was a big deal then) TV... as in COLOR TV and little else. Now the list of electronic goodies is near endless.

Culture... people on balance are way more active and have way more disposable income now. A lot more interest - access to a wide variety of pursuits. We are a more fragmented society today relative to our leisure time. And I think listen to a lot more live music than in the past. Going to live concerts is a priority for many people today and there are so many more venues today. Casino's and so on. People just don't hang around the house like they used to.

Novelty... well... it has passed. A real music reproduction system was a rarity in the late 50's and a lot of the 60's. It was mainly limited to audio purists... Ham radio - electronics nuts and those who had a ton of money coupled with an interest in music.

Like a Corvette... today just about anybody with any kind of desire and a credit rating can buy one if they really wanted one.

Not so 40-50 years ago.

And people today tend to dabble, satisfy their curiosity and move on to other things. In the 60's & 70's it took a big financial commitment to have a high end system. You planned and saved up and invested. Not so much anymore. You just pull out your credit card...

I would be interested in others comments on this. It is key to answering Fred's original question. I do think as our economy and personal disposable income decline... high end audio has a real chance at moving back into the mainstream. We shall see.

Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60627 is a reply to message #60558] Wed, 19 August 2009 03:19 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
PR Audio is currently offline  PR Audio
Messages: 23
Registered: July 2009
Location: Southern IL / Western KY
Chancellor
I'll try to contribute more thoughts here when (if) I can get a little more time, but, 1st, you all have made some quite good observations.

Steve, in specific response to your comment about quality, I think that when it comes to many areas, people have simply been "dumbed down", and manufacturers for the most part now expect this type of consumer. In other words, most manufacturers don't think their customers will really expect all that much from them, and customers figure that's how they'll be treated and approached, and are too lazy(?) / busy / whatever to do anything but oblige them.

It's much like my old assistant at Credence: She figures ALL politicians are crooks, so, (paraphrasal) "might as well vote for whoever promises the most goodies and hope they come through with some of it." No attempt is made to hold said politicians to a higher standard. (I really think this points toward a sort of moral decay in our society, but I suppose that's a subject for an entirely different thread!)

Going back to "high end" (or even halfway decent audio), what we have is a vast majority of people who don't hold themselves or vendors of audio products to much of an expectation. Probably the most common phrase I hear is "Oh, I probably couldn't tell the difference" (in sound quality). But, the great majority of people to whom I get a chance to demonstrate the difference, between simply "good" sound, and the average of what people are listening to, CAN tell a difference, and some, when they find out that they can "build up to it", and not have to spend a whole ton of money, get interested in doing so. The main thing is to get 'em interested, and I think that's Fred's point about what he's trying to do.

At LSAF '09, a group of us ended up in Keith Larson's room, late Sat., and this was one of the topics that came up, at least in relation to getting more attendance at LSAF, general interest in audio, and so on. I made the suggestion that somehow combining some sort of audio demos / shows with other events that already draw people in would perhaps be useful. I'm toying with the idea myself. For example, from Section 270.65 of the Illinois Administrative Rules for the "DuQuoin State Fair":

Section 270.65 Policy of Permitting Space Without Monetary Charge

To promote the dissemination of free information and/or to provide for the free entertainment of fairgoers, the Department may provide space and/or facilities to exhibitors without monetary charge for industrial, cultural, educational, trade and/or scientific exhibits, provided that the exhibits fit into the general theme of the State Fair, space is available, and no direct sales to the public are made on the fairgrounds.


So, potentially I could go up there and put up a "non-sales" type exhibit, and many thousands of people would walk by, daily. Then I just need something to get some of 'em to come in. (My 21" woofer? Free Lemonade? Free Water? [Hey, Murdale Water District, #3 in the USA for best water in 2006!])

Ok, granted, an outdoor fair in August in So. IL might be, umm, "sticky" (hot and humid.) And I'd have to come up with a tent / booth. But, there are all sorts of other kinds of events and festivals, too...

I have some other thoughts regarding getting people interested, through the avenue of A-V. I'll try to get some time to get those thoughts organized and posted, uh -- sometime!





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