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Re: Ukraine [message #98333 is a reply to message #98332]

Tue, 25 February 2025 11:45

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18844
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I've read many of the things you've posted from the "Moon of Alabama" website and others, including Jeffrey Sachs. In particular, I agree with some of what Jeffrey Sachs says. But I must admit that I disagree with his latest opinions. I'm not alone in this:

From economist to Kremlin mouthpiece: The troubling transformation of Jeffrey Sachs, from theHill.com, June 19, 2024
Jeffrey Sachs: Checkered record on the stuff he’s “good at” and terrible takes on Ukraine and covid, from Medium.com, August 27, 2023

Frankly, Sachs talks out of both sides of his mouth these days. On one hand, he says he wishes people would have listened to him when he recommended what we should do to assist the governments and peoples of former Soviet countries. When he says that, I agree.

But then he talks about how we shouldn't be involved. So which is it? Should we have done stuff to help after the Soviet Union crumbled? - The stuff Sachs proposed, I assume would have been OK with him - but so should we have involved ourselves or not?

Honestly, when Sachs talks about what we could have done right after the Soviet Union dissolved, I agree with him. I think we could have assisted Soviet nations and their peoples to convert to a free-market system. We could have educated the public on the value of having ownership in their companies. We could have helped their industries get back on their feet, maybe offered assistance and taken some of the profits in return.

So when Sachs talks about how he wished his recommendations had been followed back in the early post-Soviet days, I agree. As an economist, his guidance would have probably been very valuable over there.

But that didn't happen. So now what?

Lately, Sachs seems to want to talk about all the bad stuff America did and is still doing. On that, I don't really disagree. We do some stuff I think is pretty stupid, or at least ineffective. And I think we often fail to do stuff that would be productive.

But there are some things are very apparent to me, with respect to the Russian invasion of Ukraine:

One is that Ukraine is an independent country and that it has been friendly to us since the early 1990s.
Another is that the former Soviet countries have a huge problem with mobster novi-russki, those that people now call "Russian oligarchs."
Third is that Putin has taken advantage of that situation and has organized the mobsters into a mob-run government instead of trying to clean up Russia and make it a nation of fair laws. Aside: Other countries have this problem too, to some degree, but Putin's Russia appears to be wholly and completely mobster-run, with Putin as its kingpin.
And lastly, Putin is an aggressor that invaded Ukraine and is guilty of all deaths responsible there.

I am willing to listen to anyone that has opinions on this subject, but those things are axiomatic to me. So if someone voices an opinion that is counter to any of those self-evident facts, I tune them out, considering them to be either innocently uniformed or having an agenda of some sort. Some of those have financial agendas, I suppose, but many appear to be motivated by pride, and just like to hear themselves talk. They just want to act like they have a clue, but amazingly, don't.

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[Message index]

		Ukraine By: Rusty on Thu, 21 September 2023 15:13
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Fri, 22 September 2023 18:28
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 23 September 2023 07:22
		Re: Ukraine By: gofar99 on Sun, 24 September 2023 21:22
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 25 September 2023 06:46
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Mon, 25 September 2023 09:20
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 25 September 2023 10:17
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Mon, 25 September 2023 11:13
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 25 September 2023 13:10
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Mon, 25 September 2023 15:07
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 25 September 2023 17:53
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Mon, 25 September 2023 19:16
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Tue, 26 September 2023 07:45
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Fri, 29 September 2023 12:10
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Fri, 29 September 2023 14:14
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Tue, 14 November 2023 07:50
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 18 November 2023 09:05
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Sun, 19 November 2023 08:54
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 19 November 2023 11:57
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 25 November 2023 16:05
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 07 January 2024 15:06
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Sun, 07 January 2024 18:09
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 08 January 2024 06:27
		Re: Ukraine By: gofar99 on Tue, 09 January 2024 20:10
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 10 January 2024 06:58
		Re: Ukraine By: gofar99 on Fri, 12 January 2024 20:25
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 13 January 2024 08:45
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 18 February 2024 09:23
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 24 February 2024 11:24
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 06 March 2024 10:23
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Fri, 22 March 2024 11:44
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Fri, 12 April 2024 12:04
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 17 April 2024 10:31
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Wed, 17 April 2024 10:51
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 17 April 2024 17:56
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 09 September 2024 19:15
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Thu, 12 September 2024 13:27
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Thu, 12 September 2024 16:57
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Fri, 13 September 2024 07:10
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 15 September 2024 09:27
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Sun, 15 September 2024 10:38
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 15 September 2024 14:43
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Mon, 16 September 2024 09:11
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 16 September 2024 11:22
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Mon, 16 September 2024 12:44
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 16 September 2024 19:42
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Tue, 17 September 2024 10:25
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Tue, 17 September 2024 11:25
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Tue, 01 October 2024 10:53
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 19 October 2024 14:38
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 02 November 2024 10:24
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 27 November 2024 10:30
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 08 December 2024 09:48
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 28 December 2024 07:08
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Sat, 28 December 2024 09:30
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 28 December 2024 11:24
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Sat, 28 December 2024 20:49
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 29 December 2024 06:23
		Re: Ukraine By: gofar99 on Sun, 29 December 2024 21:03
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 30 December 2024 06:37
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Mon, 30 December 2024 09:38
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Mon, 30 December 2024 14:28
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Tue, 31 December 2024 12:24
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Tue, 31 December 2024 14:53
		Re: Ukraine By: gofar99 on Tue, 31 December 2024 19:59
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 01 January 2025 08:34
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Fri, 03 January 2025 12:22
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 05 January 2025 18:02
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 08 January 2025 10:10
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 08 January 2025 15:08
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Wed, 12 February 2025 15:17
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Thu, 20 February 2025 07:37
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Tue, 25 February 2025 06:06
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Tue, 25 February 2025 11:45
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Tue, 25 February 2025 16:39
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 01 March 2025 07:12
		Re: Ukraine By: Wayne Parham on Sat, 01 March 2025 09:58
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sat, 01 March 2025 11:30
		Re: Ukraine By: gofar99 on Sat, 01 March 2025 20:06
		Re: Ukraine By: gofar99 on Sat, 01 March 2025 20:12
		Re: Ukraine By: gofar99 on Sat, 01 March 2025 20:27
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Sun, 02 March 2025 08:38
		Re: Ukraine By: Rusty on Tue, 04 March 2025 07:17

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