Home » Audio » General » Single driver/single ended/George Brienes/Martin King
Single driver/single ended/George Brienes/Martin King [message #999] |
Sat, 23 October 2004 15:59 ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Manualblock
Messages: 4973 Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (13th Degree) |
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Hi All; Last night I had the opportunity to audition the two august gentlemen's collaboration on a single driver transmission line Fostex speaker. Driven by the top of the line Decware el-84 SE amps. This is a new speaker that uses the Fostex 6.5" driver full range in an acoustically dead cabinet of some size with a passive compensation network attached. I know very little about this aspect of the hobby so I have no particular opinions or bias's either way. I brought along some of the CD's I have on the player recently to use as source material. These consisted of the JVC XRCD version of Blue Mitchell's "Blue Moods", re-master. Mosaics,Duke pearson's compilation. Wynton Marsallis's new,"The Magic Hour". Paquito D'Rivera,"The Clarinetist". Charlie Haden and Kenny Barron's live album,"Night in The City". The Frank Kimbrough Trio's"Lonely Woman', from Mapleshade. Tommy Flanagan,Red Mitchell,Elvin Jones"Super Session". Here's my story; We listened to cuts off each album; no intteruptions except for short break here and there. The sound was good, very smooth and plenty of good musical bass. On the re-masters the instruments were clearly defined, not a lot of highs on this material but enough to allow you to fill in the blanks. While the music sounded real, I thought it was lacking weight and body. And the impact you get with live music was minimised; but the sound was very pleasant and at some points delightfull. My hosts seemed perplexed slightly though. So after a hour of listening I asked would they like to put some of their music on, I would be interested in hearing it. They favor more pop jazz, the first piece was Dianna Krall "Live in Paris". This is a nice mix of pop/jazz riffs and some ballads. I happen to enjoy her voice but am not a huge fan of her playing. Well; the system came alive, huge difference in tonal quality. She appeared dead center and bigger than life, but very real and 3dimensional. We tried another cut from a guy I had never heard, Jonathan Butler, a guitarist in the mold of Earl Klugh; who sings on the album as well. The music spread out and deepened and just was huge! Much more energy and as the mastering guys say "HOT". Very high energy. Lots of sharp highs and crackling bass. Crisp and defined beyond anything I have ever heard in a live venue. The guitar had a personality; it lost that generic sound, the cymbals shimmered and changed in tone depending on where the stick hit them. Now I have never heard of either of these men who built this speaker. I turned to my friend and said, these speakers love this music. He was surprised to say the least. He asked why I said that. It seemed obvious to me. It turns out that there are forum's that follow this design and in fact that is the music they use to tune the system. I went home and put some of my music on just to see. The real thing was back, live and articulate but normal sounding without the pyrotechnic's. My CD's are primarily Jazz from people who are not associated with anything other than jazz, not pop or cross-over or fusion. And they are very well recorded. You can't fault JVC XRCD or ENJA, or the people who do Wynton. It's an older sound. My point: On the jazz albums the music was flat On the pop albums it was dynamic and hot. On the SD Fostex my music sorta died ;On my Pi 4's they breathed. What do we have here. I would have liked to hear these cuts on my system and I will do that some time. My opinion as of now. These Tansmission line Fostex; If you like Dianna or Jonathan run and get them. They are 850$ delivered or you can get plans and build. They flatter that sound to an amazing degree. Could I live with them; I don't know. But I know that in this story there is some kind of lesson. My last system consisted of Spendor SP1's and the EAR SE EL-509. Spencer Hughe's, the man behind Spendor was also involved in mastering the London Philharmonic for the BBC and in fact they used his speakers for monitors and quality control. The SP-100's are still the best classical speakers in the world bar none. But they don't do the other stuff that well. JBL 300's are still the best rock speaker ever. Where is the all-in-one speaker? Why do all speakers favor certain type's of music?
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Use of apostrophe. [message #1000 is a reply to message #999] |
Sat, 23 October 2004 22:04 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Poindexter
Messages: 108 Registered: May 2009
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Viscount |
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Careful about that, Man. The apostrophe either indicates the possesive, or a contraction; that is, the elision of some letters. The content: I have been studying this for several years. Many of my reference recordings are in the 'commercial pop' category (Russ Freeman / Rippingtons, 'Curves Ahead', Weekend in Monaco'; Anita Baker, 'Rapture'; Andy Narell, 'De Long Time Band', and others you know about better than I), and these have the regular commercial pop mix; 3dB peaks at ~70Hz and 5KHz. There are lots of otherwise fab (see above) recordings that our rigs must reproduce without prejudice. Then there are the Mercury L P, Deutch G. , and so on (Jackie DuPre Elgar Concerto, Barbirolli Sebelius 2, John McLaughlin Bill Evans tribute, Lauridsen 'Lux Ǽterna', and others you know about better than I)
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Continuation; [message #1001 is a reply to message #1000] |
Sat, 23 October 2004 22:15 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Poindexter
Messages: 108 Registered: May 2009
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Viscount |
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Due to reckless use of 'Post' button. So, how do we reconcile these discontinuous virtual realities in our rigs? Again, I've been working on this for a long time. Make your rig with the widest bandwidth, the lease phase shift (least number of reactive[capacitive or inductive] components), the lowest net impedence possible. I have just listed my reference recordings, and reference criterea baldly. I cannot tell you how many times I have been disappointed in the results. The sound does not have to improve for the experiment to be a success. Repeat this. Poinz
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Re: Continuation; [message #1002 is a reply to message #1001] |
Sun, 24 October 2004 01:42 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Mike.e
Messages: 471 Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (1st Degree) |
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Make your rig with the widest bandwidth, the lease phase shift (least number of reactive[capacitive or inductive] components), the lowest net impedence possible. What about resistive/reactive circuits that cause phase to be more linear? Simplest = Better musical experience? Cheers! Mike.e
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Corrective reactive components. [message #1005 is a reply to message #1002] |
Sun, 24 October 2004 13:02 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Poindexter
Messages: 108 Registered: May 2009
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Viscount |
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What about resistive/reactive circuits that cause phase to be more linear? Dunno; I haven't tried it. There are some very sharp guys who do this all the time. Remember also that simple (no feedback) audio circuits and speakers/crossovers are mostly phase-minimum situations, so the phase and amplitude responses are interdependent; correct one and you correct the other. Two of these corrective circuits that are getting a lot of discussion right now are the Baffle Step Compensation Circuit, and Sigfried Linkwitz' 'perceptual dip', a low-Q ~3dB dip centered at 2-3KHz. These may be implemented at the speaker, passively at line level, or as part of a preamp/amp circuit. I would much like to scare up enough time to try these out. My personal experience so far, however, is that when we use these circuits, we're playing the correction of the circuit against the degradation of the sound due to the insertion of passive components in the signal path. All components have a 'sound'; that is, they degrade the signal to some small extent. As an engineering sort, it drives me crazy that resistors have a sound. Technically, it's insupportable; any nice quiet, low TC metal film should be sonically indistinguishable from a good piece of wire. My 6V6 amp was the first piece I built without any grid-stop resistors and it sounded fab and displayed no overt signs of oscillation, but just to perform the experiment, I put a 150Ω Riken in front of the input grid, just to hear what I could hear. Man, I couldn't get those things out of there fast enough! These are nice resistors, my fave so far, and I never would have thought that the difference would be so great. So, so far my opinion is that the circuit should be as absolutely simple as possible, with highest possible quality components, especially (in order) capacitors, resistors, connectors, wire. Oddly, inductors (including transformers) don't seem to have as much of a sonic signature; as long as they are good quality, and are operated well down out of saturation. JMO, YMMV, et dissing cetera; just one geek's experience. Poinz
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Use of vinyl. [message #1006 is a reply to message #1003] |
Sun, 24 October 2004 13:18 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Poindexter
Messages: 108 Registered: May 2009
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Viscount |
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I've heard good LP playback just a couple of times; there's no doubt in my tiny brain that it has greater sonic potential than 16/44 PCM, although the gap has narrowed considerably now that CDs are being mastered with more care. I do find vinyl to be a great deal more variable, as far as its tonal balance and noise are concerned, though; there are some truly wretched and utterly transcendent LPs. The problem for us down here is that our climate is very unkind to stored LPs. There are molds and stuff that grow on the surface and degrade the vinyl, making it noisy. As a result, we have nothing like the store of old records that you guys do in the mainland. Being an analoghead becomes an expensive pursuit, even not considering the equipment cost, which is already far greater than that for digital playback. Back to the original question, when I play pop-mixed recordings, yes, I hear the boom and sizzle; but because they are reproduced clearly and cleanly and not exacerbated by the gear, they are far less obtrusive than on mass-market dreck. Besides, it's an artistic statement, they do it on purpose; pop is supposed to sound like that! Peace, Poinz
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Re: Corrective reactive components. [message #1007 is a reply to message #1005] |
Sun, 24 October 2004 19:47 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Mike.e
Messages: 471 Registered: May 2009
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Illuminati (1st Degree) |
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I would never use passive components-Active seem to have too many advantages. I wouldnt bother with the 'perceptual dip'-it sounds like bad use of EQ -ie what everyone uses an EQ for- to unequalise ![](http://www.audioroundtable.com/emoticons/winkie.gif) I havent had the chance nor the quality components to test 'resistor sound' - my highest peice is a jbl2226 but my main speakers are regular sonys-For now! Your problem now-Is how do you measure 'quality' of components- because you can hear the difference- where as i cant/havent. Cheers!
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Personal experimentation. [message #1009 is a reply to message #1007] |
Sun, 24 October 2004 23:25 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/forum/theme/AudioRoundTable/images/down.png) |
Poindexter
Messages: 108 Registered: May 2009
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Viscount |
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You should go and read Sigfried's expo. In his view, he's not 'unequalizing', he's correcting for the difference in the way human ears and microphones 'hear' what's happening in the concert environment. Everybody (definitely including me) flaps their lips about this stuff; the only way for you to determine what is the actual TROOTH is to perform the experiment and post back your results. We await, Poinz
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