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Re: Empire [message #98485 is a reply to message #98483]

Fri, 25 April 2025 07:42

Rusty
Messages: 1322
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri

Illuminati (3rd Degree)

Russiaphobia is the general term for the conditioning our government has pushed off on the public since post WWII. That and demonization of the words communism and socialism. I realize you have empathy for Russian and Ukrainian's as do I. But I don't obsess over the hydra Putin as is known. I've gotten over that. Using objectivity from linking what I read and hear that answers the contradictions and adds up to a high plausibility for what is real vs fantasy, propaganda & hogwash.

I could go out here in my own community and get a sample of disdain or defense for Trump. Thus, your assessment for what the disdain for the Russian government and Putin is in eastern Ukraine based on knowing "a few" people is no more revealing the dominant mood of the population. Even having visited that region won't give the knowledge to understand the big issues of geopolitical happenings. It's too complex and subtle.

But I'll wager from the narrative we all have here in this country our whole lives that traveling to that region and getting to know some people there that had negativity towards Russia & Putin led to confirmation bias as a result.

But none of this comes down to what we "feel" about this world event. It comes down to what an ideological pattern is followed for decades on end and giving no positive returns for the effort. And that is where I get the notion that you are not giving credence about. As if one person, Vladimir Putin, is a diabolical individual bent on conquest. Leading up to this terrible occurrence happening.

This has played out over decades culminating in what is happening now. Our country has followed a path that plopped in its lap by default after the world war as an unscathed highly industrialized prosperous nation that embarked on being the unipolar defacto democratic capitalist beacon on the hill, as Regan described. Shining truth, liberty & the American way to the world. Which has become a warped fetish to maintain. Trying to control all aspects of world affairs.

Every empire in history has followed this pattern. It eventually becomes too great a burden on it's population to sustain it.

We didn't cultivate Ukraine or Russia as a result of this ideology of unipolarity, of dominance. We have considered Russia, its huge land mass and its military a threat to that unipolarity. And have acted accordingly as trying to contain that threat. When the Soviet system collapsed and asked for our capitalist guidance. We gave them neoliberalism. We only wanted them for their natural resources, oil and minerals.
We went to use them. That's as far as our charity went. That's what empires do. Colonize a population for the empires needs. Something Putin wouldn't allow. So he becomes a pariah for our empire managers.

And we've "used" Ukraine the same cynical way. They were a last piece of the puzzle to encircle Russia to the Black sea with the NATO so called defense umbrella. In defense of the military industrial complex our country maintains. Our last "profitable" industry.

Here's a good treatise on that note.
https://sonar21.com/the-road-to-war-in-ukraine-the-history-of-nato-and-us-military-exercises-with-ukraine-part-1/

I just don't agree Wayne with your simplistic assessment of what has happened. All you've been rationalizing seems more of an emotional element than an objective view.

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Re: Empire [message #98487 is a reply to message #98485]

Fri, 25 April 2025 14:42

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18883
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I hear what you're saying, Rusty. And your argument has merit.

But then again, think about it: You said, "I could go out here in my own community and get a sample of disdain or defense for Trump. Thus, your assessment for what the disdain for the Russian government and Putin is in eastern Ukraine based on knowing 'a few' people is no more revealing the dominant mood of the population."

Now think about the actual facts here. Those people in east Ukraine have now had their homes and businesses destroyed, and many friends and family members killed.

How many of them do you think are Putin supporters?

Exactly zero.

If there ever were any folks in eastern Ukraine that thought Putin was OK, they don't think that anymore. I would argue there were few even before Russian aggression, but as a nod to the point you've made, I'll agree there may have been some here and there.

But not anymore. Now days, Ukrainians that used to be proud to be Russian Ukrainians are less so.

Most Ukrainians now have a seething hatred of Putin.

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Re: Empire [message #98490 is a reply to message #98487]

Sat, 26 April 2025 09:50

Rusty
Messages: 1322
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri

Illuminati (3rd Degree)

Well Wayne I think that you could turn that argument around to land on the government of Ukraine and certainly the influence of the United States and Europe by means of how this war was instigated.

There was a civil war going on in that region before the Russian special operation which I gather had some solidarity with the Russian heritage inherent to that region being subverted by the Kiev government.

I don't know if you perused this piece of reporting done by journalist Shura Burtin about the war weariness of Ukrainians and how the Kiev government has gone to fascist methods of putting soldiers on the front lines. It's heartening to read the realities of warfare and its effect on people up close.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2025/03/27/please-don-t-use-my-name

You'll be heartened as well by the preface of this piece condemning Russia invasion. But, I don't doubt the Ukrainian's will call to mobilize for invasion by an army across the boarder as being the enemy.

But when you piece together the cynical chess game that the west has done in using a whole country as a means to further an ideological construct that when analyzed over time and content. Amounts to a barbarous mind set. A totally negative, wasteful and cruel way of thinking.

That is what I find indefensible about our country. And is a sign of its depletion as a world leadership devoid of any virtue in government.

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Re: Empire [message #98491 is a reply to message #98490]

Sat, 26 April 2025 11:45

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18883
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I hear you, Rusty.

I think the point of what you've been trying to say in this thread is there are some selfish and even corrupt people in this country using ugly force to do nefarious activities around the world. You're saying it isn't fair and it isn't good. You're saying there's a lot of manipulation and much of what we read and hear in the media is spin.

I think you're saying that happens in Europe too.

I agree. I see that.

But where I chime in is specifically on this Russia / Ukraine thing. And most specifically, on Putin, his political allies and the novi russki.

I liked Putin when he first came to power at the end of 1999. He appeared to be a strong leader and I was hopeful for Russia. I was warned back then by many Russians though. They were afraid of exactly what has come to pass these past twenty-five years.

Putin's actions and those of his cronies are the absolute worst examples of everything you stand against in this thread. Vladamir Putin is the archetypal example of the emperor of an evil empire.

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Re: Empire [message #98492 is a reply to message #98130]

Sat, 26 April 2025 21:11

gofar99
Messages: 1987
Registered: May 2010
Location: Southern Arizona

Illuminati (5th Degree)

Good Listening
Bruce

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Re: Empire [message #98493 is a reply to message #98492]

Sun, 27 April 2025 09:11

Rusty
Messages: 1322
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri

Illuminati (3rd Degree)

I think the point of what you've been trying to say in this thread is there are some selfish and even corrupt people in this country using ugly force to do nefarious activities around the world. You're saying it isn't fair and it isn't good. You're saying there's a lot of manipulation and much of what we read and hear in the media is spin.

I'm saying its been a consistent behavior our government has crafted going on for longer than we've been alive. It has been a part of our foreign relations that our neocon mania induced ideology as the worlds sole superpower. The empire. Europe is but our cooperative vassal in this NATO scheme.

Our neoliberal economy is stretched thin now having succumbed to its inherent tendencies to eventually cannibalize itself with debt service on our people and trade deficits on our government. Over dependencies on imports has weakened our ability to thrive independently. Our world dollar standard that has been known for some time as our exorbitant privilege has been used as a weapon to hurt other sovereign nations economies unjustifiably.

We have tried to do exactly that to Russia, for years. In conjunction with our NATO expansion to rein in and contain that country. That is a long established policy having been passed on bipartisan from one administration to another to try and break up their nation. To neuter it out of our chronic cynical reasoning.
You're really off the mark though saying Russia's economy is bad. Data shows otherwise. That shows the competency of their government.

So when you say Wayne that Putin has evil intentions and empire, it's the mirror what your own country has amounted to in this world. The history shows it, the cover up promotes it. I think you're coming from a very micro oriented viewpoint. Based on relationships with a limited few amount of people and a lifetime of conditioning that our country crafts to assuage public sentiment.

The macro view I read gives a much different take on what has been going on for some time. Everything is interconnected so a broad view has to be considered. Without the intentional distortion that propaganda is used for. As the saying goes, "Actions speak louder than words". The cumulative actions that our country has exhibited over the years show a pattern of deception and deceit. That's been as counterproductive to ourselves as is to others. We are isolating ourselves by it.

You just discount it is all. In this ugly war that never had to be and with the other subjects I've brought up here in the dungeon. MMT, Israel, Politics and AI.
I don't expect to "change" anyone's minds here, I'm just giving my opinion is all. I make it a point to try and get more viewpoints to subject matter and try and piece together what makes sense to me. You mentioned once how the solar system was once an official standard that slowly came to be seen otherwise.

That's what I'm banking on. Probably not in my lifetime. From the real smart people I think anyway, that seem like pretty good detectives understanding this mess for what it is. I think their legacy is being passed on. There's some youngblood expanding on it.

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Re: Empire [message #98495 is a reply to message #98493]

Sun, 27 April 2025 10:04

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18883
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Rusty wrote:

"So when you say Wayne that Putin has evil intentions and empire, it's the mirror what your own country has amounted to in this world. The history shows it, the cover up promotes it. I think you're coming from a very micro oriented viewpoint."

I'm really not sure why you seem to be letting Putin off the hook here.

I mean, you're quick to point out the ugliness you see in America, but seem to give Putin a pass. I don't get it.

You've undoubtedly read that some in America are considering ways to reassert control over the Panama canal. Some think we are getting a raw deal there, and that since we built that canal, we should retain a great deal of influence and cooperation in how it is being used and who is using it.

Similarly, between here and there we have Mexico, and some say America has problems with Mexican criminals doing nefarious activities in America. They say we have economic problems from unfair tariffs and welfare payouts for food, housing and healthcare for illegal immigrants. They usually also say the nations between Mexico and Panama are part of the same problem too.

Without making any judgement as to whether those things are right or wrong, fair or unfair, let's consider our options: We can take diplomatic measures, economic measures or military measures.

So what actions should America take? What have we done so far?

As much as I agree that there are some shady politicians and unfair practices in America, I must remind everyone reading this that what Putin is doing is an order of magnitude worse.

Consider his actions. Putin faced a situation in the port of Sevastopol, where he had cooperative agreements from Ukraine allowing Russia to maintain a fleet there. But apparently, Putin would rather take control than cooperate. So he simply claimed Crimea to be a Russian territory and attacked eastern Ukraine.

What Putin did would be like if America were to install an overwhelming number of troops in Panama, claiming it to be an American state. Then attack Mexico in war. Take control of that whole region, and make a corridor all the way through to Panama. Rile the population, saying "Remember the Alamo!"

You may say that America has overstepped some boundaries. I won't argue that. But I will remind you of what Putin has done. That's clearly an overstep. It's an ugly war created by an evil overlord.

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Re: Empire [message #98501 is a reply to message #98495]

Mon, 28 April 2025 11:20

Rusty
Messages: 1322
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri

Illuminati (3rd Degree)

You know Wayne, everything you mentioned there is the convoluted readout from our state department and lackadaisical press. It's not 'me' letting Putin off the hook. It's you letting off the hook our age old neoconservative influence in the realm of governmental policy support recommendations that underwrites our policy domestically and internationally. Our two political parties follow this nonsense as if it were like the tablets of the ten commandments.

This is why I bring up a narrow interpretation I read from your statements. The macro view I mentioned is what some very astute professional people, economists, analysts, journalists that have taken the interest and time to research the contradictions of what our government has been up to for a great long time. That have NOT had a positive impact on our longstanding good will with the rest of the world.

All you have been offering is what 'your' experiences have been with a few people in a region under conflict now. And I'm to trust you just by that.
That is so narrow of a slice of the way of the world operates as to be able to understand the big picture of things.

This thing with Panama is blown entirely out of proportion thanks to our new administration. It's too old and narrow now to accommodate larger vessels, it requires fresh water to operate that now is in short supply. And other routes are being built, (with the help of China) to circumvent the inherent downside of the aging Panama canal.
And by the way, China conducts it's infrastructure outreach without the overbearing imperialist colonizing mentality our country exhibits throughout history. They're policy is win-win. What's good for both country's.
We still hang on to the imperialist mentality of the Monroe Doctrine in Mexico, Central and South America.
The measures we should have taken all along in that region is what China shows like the golden rule for sovereign nations. Ours has been to use and abuse with impunity.

I could go back and forth with you till the cows come home about Putin and the Ukraine issue it seems. But for what I came to understand is that this conflict was underwritten as part of a longstanding effort to put the squeeze or even breakup the sovereign nation of Russia out of our asinine neocon behavior of long standing.

The historical record of it is obvious. And now our interest is in doing the same stupid pretense with China using Taiwan as the proxy. This shit never ends!

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Re: Empire [message #98502 is a reply to message #98501]

Mon, 28 April 2025 11:39

Rusty
Messages: 1322
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri

Illuminati (3rd Degree)

A good summation of the ongoing peace negotiations with the Trump administration.
I've no doubt that our press and official government release will spin this reality into the usual gobbledygook. But this blog and others spell out the most accurate interpretation that most public has no clue to. Just read the typical western headlines and stay clueless.

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2025/04/russia-continues-to-reject-trumps-attempt-to-freeze-the-war-in-ukraine.html#more

P.S. Sergei Lavrov is a consummate foreign minister. He was on Meet the Press Sunday. And was very articulate and accurate. Something our State Department is sorely lacking in for quite some time.

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Re: Empire [message #98503 is a reply to message #98502]

Mon, 28 April 2025 12:10

Wayne Parham
Messages: 18883
Registered: January 2001

Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Rusty wrote:

"You know Wayne, everything you mentioned there is the convoluted readout from our state department and lackadaisical press. It's not 'me' letting Putin off the hook. It's you letting off the hook our age old neoconservative influence in the realm of governmental policy support recommendations that underwrites our policy domestically and internationally. Our two political parties follow this nonsense as if it were like the tablets of the ten commandments."

This isn't a "readout from our state department" or anywhere else. It's my own observations. I've been following Russian and Ukrainian things pretty closely since the late 1990s.

Honestly, I'm kind of like you in the sense that I don't believe a lot of what I read and hear in the press, whether in print, television or online. So I'm not biased by spin 'cause I'm not listening to spin.

My main point is this: Without taking anyone else's opinions - just using your own eyes - you can see that Russia overran and occupied Crimea and then proceeded to militarily attack Ukraine. Putin is an aggressor.

In my eyes - since I'm close with friends, some that live there, others with family there - I can see that Putin has been brutal. I consider him and those that do his violence to be terrorists.

And the truth is, most every other nation sees it this way too. It's not just American "neoconservatives" or "neoliberals" or whatever. It's not one American administration or another. It's not just the United Kingdom or France. It's practically everyone. Almost every other nation is alarmed at Putin's aggression.

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