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Home » xyzzy » Dungeon » Empire
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| Re: Empire [message #98472 is a reply to message #98471] |
Mon, 21 April 2025 13:27   |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18889
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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There are some things that are near every Ukrainian heart that we in the U.S.A. would not immediately recognize. To know these things helps understand the relationship between Russians and Ukrainians.
1. Prior to WWII, the population of Ukraine was approximately 42 million. After WWII, its population was 27 million. So Ukraine lost fully 1/3rd of its people.
2. Consider the fact that the German advance went through Ukraine. Ukraine was completely occupied.
3. The population of the Soviet Union (including Ukraine) before WWII was 195 million. After WWII its population was 170 million. So you can see by these numbers that the vast majority of losses were actually Ukrainian.
4. In modern times, many Ukrainians prefer to speak Russian, or at least they did before Putin invaded them. They are proud of both their Russian heritage and their independent Ukrainian citizenship. They lean heavily pro-Western and want relationships with Europe and the U.S.A. as much or more than having ties with Russia. It appears that the population of large cities tends to speak Russian and rural areas are more likely to speak Ukrainian. One exception is the city of Kiev, where most people speak Ukrainian.
5. Ukrainians have complicated emotions about their ties to Russia. In modern times, many Ukrainians consider themselves to be Russians even after Ukrainian independence in 1991. But do not mistake this to mean they wish to be Russian citizens. They prefer their independence, and their "Russian-ness" is purely cultural.
6. This goes back and has ties to the early days of the Soviet Union, up and through the period of the second world war. Ukraine, like many other former Soviet states, did not want to be part of the Soviet Union. During the Bolshevik revolution - when the Tsar and his family were imprisoned and shot - Ukraine declared independence. But since it had so many natural resources, it was attractive to the Soviet Union, so Russian troops invaded Ukraine. It eventually fell and became part of the Soviet Union in 1922.
7. Ukraine had been part of the Russian Empire when it was ruled by the Tsars, so it already had ties to Russia. But it did attempt to gain independence in the period between 1917 and 1922. It was unable to maintain its independence because political and economic conditions were too chaotic and unstable. So the people of Ukraine must have felt some of the same Russian/Ukrainian ambivalence 100 years ago as they feel today.
8. For a brief time in 1941 - because of the desire to be independent of Russia - some people in Ukraine thought Nazis might act as liberators rather than conquerors. This hope was quickly dashed when the Nazis invaded. The Nazis were especially brutal, because there were a large number of Jews in areas of Ukraine. Massacres at Babi Yar and in Kiev are still remembered by all Russians and Ukrainians, to this day.
9. A Nazi resistance was formed in Ukraine while it was occupied, much like the one in France. In particular, the city of Odessa has 1600 miles of underground tunnels that acted as home base for "partisans" that fought the Nazis.
10. So the ties between Russians and Ukrainians are deep and complicated. They are definitely kindred spirits in many ways. But Ukrainians are proud to be independent of Russia, which is evident by their tenacity in war after the modern Russian invasion.
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| Re: Empire [message #98479 is a reply to message #98478] |
Wed, 23 April 2025 15:52 |
Rusty
Messages: 1329
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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Not true Wayne. As I've pointed out a number of times. Our country nearly started WWIII in the 1960's over missile placement in Cuba by Russia. After we provoked them first with missiles in Turkey. Know your history. Now, I think the facts for Russia having committed to this war far outnumber your assessment. And it's backed up by historical documents.
Russia has stated and backed up by historical documents and speeches that Ukraine would be the last straw in the United States and Europe's quest to encircle Russia with missiles, some with nuclear capability pointed into Russia for a quick strike. Known as a decapitation strike. Facts Wayne. Historical facts. Documented facts. Yours are speculation and bias.
They called our bluff finally after decades of encroachment by our warmongering, neocon, paranoid deep-state military complex. People like John Bolton, Dick Chaney, Robert McNamara just to name a few.
When our country fictitiously invaded Iraq under the guise of the phony weapons of mass destruction. During our occupation an insurgency developed to rid us out of their country. Which would be the same if Russia took all of Ukraine. That's what I meant. They would have a protracted mess to deal with just like our troops did in Iraq. And frankly, Putin is too smart to want that kind of quagmire. So the eastern "Russian" speaking and Russian sympathetic region is all that will be assimilated back into Russia. And Crimea. And the rest of Ukraine can be free to do whatever it wants economically, socially to align with Europe and the US. Just as they had prior to this stupid NATO war. Though frankly they'd be better off aligning with the BRICS. All our current administration wants is to confiscate as much of their resources as what our current leader thinks would pay back our losing deal with this war commitment from our prior administration.
This whole concocted NATO farse is just that. Russia never had any what-so-ever desire to take that country back into it's management. Their hand was forced by our country and Europe. Why would Russia want the headache of it all? And the absurd battle cry of the European Union mismanaged wrongheaded seat in Brussels that Russia would invade all of Europe eventually is so far fetched beyond reason. They've been duking it out for 3 years now just in Ukraine. Imagine the time, the money, the loss of life to take all of Europe! Ridiculous!
And as I've stated ad nauseum now and also historically documented. Russia had a treaty with Ukraine hammered out in Istanbul to end hostilities in eastern Ukraine when the messy haired Brit. Boris Johnson at our behest convinced Zelensky to "give it a go", we'd back him 100%. Yessiree.
And now we want war with Iran and China! Who's the war freaking fanatics here Wayne?
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| Re: Empire [message #98482 is a reply to message #98480] |
Thu, 24 April 2025 10:35 |
Rusty
Messages: 1329
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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Your obsessed with Putin and Russiaphobia. And you've left your objectivity behind on this. When you brought up seeing things through time, aka, history. The history of the United States is well documented and fraught with meddling. That isn't sitting on the fence. That is a perversion of diplomacy and sovereignty of nations.
You don't seem to make the connections of how our economic aggression and trade imbalances have contributed to world geopolitical disturbances. And our country's long standing idealism of arbiter of world dominance through economic warfare and diplomacy through strength as it's called. Which is our recipe for military conflict.
No other country has so many military installations throughout as we do. Not even close. Even Russia whose country boarders with 16 others is no where close to ours. And no other country has been involved in so many conflicts since WWII as ours has. So, who has the pattern of aggression historically? It's right here. That isn't sitting on the fence. That is what the term "unipolarity" is used to describe a dominant country influencing world affairs.
All while we can't get our own act together in this country. Other than to protect and preserve the ruling class of wealth and privilege pulling the political strings.
Yes I feel Putin is intelligent and is conducting this campaign intelligently. And his country. Despite what we, our government has done subversively to try and hurt their economy. Our petty control freak agenda. Trying to "contain" is our term used. That is the crux of what our influence with Zelensky using the carrot and stick of maybe, possibly joining the European Union if they'd also join NATO amounted to. It didn't work. And Biden having had the Nordstream pipeline destroyed didn't work either. It only put Europe and especially Germany economically depleted.
The terms of Russia's halt to hostilities has been consistent. They will keep the traditional Russian sympathetic regions and Crimea, they will "disarm" Ukraine without NATO influence, and they want the "root" causes for the US and NATO eastern expansion addressed. But they put that in for a reason. The reason Wayne you and our government won't acknowledge. You both have a scapegoat, Putin and Russiaphobia.
Well, Trump just wants to look like the peacemaker like when he said as a candidate he could end the war in 24hrs. But now our diplomacy is to just walk away and let Europe and Ukraine deal with it. Because neither Ukraine or Russia won't play Trump's dealmaker game.
China is the new con job. Our "containment" quest. That isn't working either by trade war or economic warfare. We are as the Chinese say, a paper tiger. Meow.
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| Re: Empire [message #98483 is a reply to message #98482] |
Thu, 24 April 2025 12:33 |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18889
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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You misunderstand me when you say, "You're obsessed with Putin and Russiaphobia."
I am not against Russia or Russians. I am not against the majority of their population. I have met and become friends with many Russians, as well as many Ukrainians, Moldovans and people from other former Soviet states.
One of my good friends was a Russian tank driver in Afghanistan. As a gift, he gave me his tank helmet. I think of him often, especially now. Actually, this man is Moldovan, and like most Ukrainians, he is happy to be independent of Russia. But he - again like many other "Russians" from independent states of the former Soviet Union - still considers himself to be Russian, culturally.
This is not true of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Might not be true in other places either. And now - after Putin's aggressions - it is probably much less true everywhere. But at least in the 1990s and 2000s, there were lots of people in newly-independent, former Soviet states, that were proud to be both Russian and Azerbaijanian or Moldovan or Ukrainian or whatever.
I find many people with that kind of background are very easy to like.
My point is that I am not anti-Russian. I will admit that I am anti-Putin, but I think that is clear.
You made another point to which I'd like to respond. You said, "You don't seem to make the connections of how our economic aggression and trade imbalances have contributed to world geopolitical disturbances. And our country's long standing idealism of arbiter of world dominance through economic warfare and diplomacy through strength as it's called. Which is our recipe for military conflict."
I realize this thread is about whole-world empire-building and perhaps meddling. At least I think that was your point in starting this thread.
But right now, I'm not talking about any other events except Russia's invasion of Ukraine and America's involvement in that arena.
And my point is essentially that I don't think we did enough there, and I think what we did do was a little too late and fairly ineffective. I think we wasted money that could have been spent better. But at the same time, I think we could have partnered with Ukrainian businesses to help us both, and I think we needed to stare Putin down much more effectively.
I think we have been very weak where Putin is concerned, and that surprises me. The Russian military has not proven themselves as one might have expected, and their infrastructure is a joke. The last thing they need to be doing is tit-for-tat strikes destroying energy services and other infrastructure. They have nothing to sell except oil, and so their economy sucks.
I further think we should have engaged in this Russia/Ukraune situation more effectively, and much earlier. At least ten years earlier; Better if done twenty or thirty earlier. This was a big miss, in my opinion. We were so focused on other areas of the world that we missed this one.
I keep hearing in my mind, President Reagan saying, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" And then he does, it crashes down with a resounding rumble. And then I hear... Nothing. Crickets. Silence.
I think we missed a huge opportunity there. An opportunity that could have helped everyone - Get them back up on their feet and maybe share some resources with us too. But we just did nothing.
You said about Russia, "They will keep the traditional Russian sympathetic regions and Crimea, they will "disarm" Ukraine without NATO influence, and they want the "root" causes for the US and NATO eastern expansion addressed."
I'm not sure if that's what you are hoping for or if that's what you predict will happen. But I must insist that you drop the phrase "Russia sympathetic regions" because there is no such thing. I think you are talking about the eastern areas of Ukraine, and I can tell you with absolute certainty - from knowing people there - that the Ukrainian citizens in the east are not "Russian sympathetic." The people that live in Lugansk, Donetsk, Mariupol and Kherson hate the Russians. They are not "Russian sympathetic." I know people that live in those cities. I know people that have fought and died there, during this invasion.
There was a time when people in those cities were happy to be free Russian/Ukrainians. They saw themselves as both Russian and Ukrainian. They were sort of both. They were proud to be both Russian and Ukrainian. They were happy to be independent, to be Ukrainian citizens.
But now they feel completely betrayed. Their homes and shops are destroyed, and their friends and family have been killed.
So don't even think there is such a thing as a person in an east Ukrainian city that is "Russian sympathetic."
As for the rest of that, I kind of don't care what Putin wants. He shouldn't get what he wants.
About Trump, you said, "Trump just wants to look like the peacemaker like when he said as a candidate he could end the war in 24hrs. But now our diplomacy is to just walk away and let Europe and Ukraine deal with it. Because neither Ukraine or Russia won't play Trump's dealmaker game."
I have to say, I agree with that.
I have hopeful optimism about a lot of the things that Trump is doing, even if some of them are a scary shake-up. I think the tariffs are a tricky situation, but I agree with them in principle. And similarly, a lot of the other changes are kind of scary too, but I think they may be good. I hope they're good.
But in this case - the Russia/Ukraine situation - I do not agree with appeasement of Putin and I do not like seeing Zelensky made out to be the heavy. Our position looks weak to me, and it is also ineffective. I can see with my eyes that it is ineffective.
I do not need anyone else's assessment - I can see the violence is still there. Kiev was bombed again last night. Not a city in the east, mind you. That's the capital of Ukraine. When Putin first invaded Ukraine, that was his target. Kiev and nuclear plants.
This isn't the actions of a liberating army. Putin can say all he wants he is hoping to free "Russian sympathizers." But never mind the fact that they don't exist, and that phrase is pure spin. The fact is he attacked the capital first and tried to cutoff power to paralyze the nation. His plan was a total takeover, and it wasn't for the good of the people. It was for his own empire-building ambitions.
So I'm very surprised that we seem to be letting him do it.
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