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Home » Audio » Silicon Valley » Tubes versus Transistors (in 1976)
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| Re: Tubes versus Transistors [message #97996 is a reply to message #95275] |
Tue, 10 September 2024 20:57   |
positron
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2020
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Viscount |
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I have obtained a little more information from the
RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 1960, by 26 engineers.
Attached are the dynamics characteristics of a triode vs
pentode vs straight line, and the second is the IMD
characteristics of a triode vs Pentode. (See figure 2
in the article to compare.)
The second has to do with the article statement:
"Reportedly, his manipulations were so
successful that not one of his challengers
could consistently distinguish his
solid-state amplifier from their own
specially designed tube equipment,
nor could they say definitely which
sounded better in the long run.
Notice the words "consistently"and "in the long run",
which infers multiple A and Bs, back and forths.
No conditions or methods are mentioned.
As such, they were just asking for a false conclusion.
Any time one suggests just listening multiple times, the listening
session is not scientific in any way, shape, or form.
In fact, the way comparisons are suggested/performed means the
conclusions are skewed 100% of the time towards no sonic difference.
That is worse than a simple normal sighted listening comparison.
This includes allowing one to perform the test anyway
one wants; a guarantee one will Not perform the listening
session/dbt correctly, thus skewed.
The problem lies in the fact that virtually No confound variables
are addressed, except sight. But how is one to know they are
being taken for a ride? I doubt if the author, himself, even knows.
In previous posts in this string, I have mentioned differences
between transistors and tube characteristics and surrounding parts.
Each component, even parts make a sonic difference when specialized
listening tests are performed correctly.
How is that important? In my lab designs (now home) after performing
specialized listening tests of each component, ics, parts etc, and found
accurate in absolute terms, my friends can perceive sonic changes as
low as -132db from the fundamental (using 20log equation).
Not surprising that components with the "same specs" sound different.
Unfortunately the article's performance is an uneducated attempt
to explain sonic differences between transistors and tubes.
However, it is all the parts, and design that are involved in
producing the music we hear.
It is not surprising why Audio excellence has stagnated, and the
audio field has been in decline for decades.
pos
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| Re: Tubes versus Transistors [message #98295 is a reply to message #98016] |
Tue, 04 February 2025 00:19 |
positron
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2020
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Viscount |
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gofar99 wrote on Fri, 20 September 2024 21:45Hi Pos, Humm. I don't believe I have seem any gear with -132db fundamentals. The noise floor of the best gear I have is about -120 so the fundamental would not be audible. What gear were you using?
Sorry for the late reply 99.
I refer to altering the frequency response and using the typical 20log equations,
which are generally the standard for frequency response deviations and other specs.
There are various ways of checking. The ear is extremely sensitive to fr variations.
I started my venture to help a friend back in 1980, when I was 30 years old.
I have since designed every piece of gear from scratch, including ics,
preamps, monoblock amps, and for the last 13 years my two way speakers. It
started in my lab, I then retired at home (my apt is my lab now). I
was in manufacturing as SAS Audio Labs, retiring in 2012.
I just kinda finished my venture by ordering Jenalabs 6N copper wire and
installing parallel "strands". It will optimize at some number of parallel
"strands", probably different than typical 3N copper, which was 11 "strands"
of 18 gauge, ~7 feet long.
Right now, I am altering the sonics a couple of ways. The first is by bending
one lead of each inductor's wire slightly, one inductor for the bass and
the other for the treble response.
The second method is by using a 2 ohm Mills resistor in series with the
wide band driver. This is the reference for sound.
I am by parallel the 2 ohm resistor with either no resistor (reference), or
8 megohms, 4 megohms, 2 megohms, or ~1.333 megohms. I may yet use another
value.
There are other ways of checking ear sensitivity but I shall end my
diatribe. 
cheers
pos
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| Re: Tubes versus Transistors [message #98297 is a reply to message #95275] |
Tue, 04 February 2025 10:08 |
positron
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2020
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Viscount |
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To explain a little further on #117, I am sure our friends have heard
more inner detail when one purposely leans their system, or even brightening
the top end frequency response. On a good system, one can hear the
effects down through the lowest bass regions. One is removing masking
by leaning the bass, or due to over bassing, or masking caused by
electrolytic capacitor(s) DA, or even other parts.
Of course, one can teetor/totter and over lean one's system and
lose naturalness.
Ok, so let's install polypropylene capacitors in place of electrolytic
capacitors in the entire system, removing the masking caused by electrolytic
capacitors. This will allow us to perceive the smallest frequency
response and inner detail changes, easily past -120 db. (Although not
reliably, we have tested FR down to 1 part in 11,000,000, or approx.
-140 db change). -120 db actually becomes the limiting factor in inner
detail retrieval in my system. We have to remember though that this is
a lab system, not a typical system.
DA, 7% of the music is lost to non musical nonsense in each electrolytic
capacitor used. Compare that figure with 0,02% for a polypropylene
capacitor. We actually hear more inner detail while improving the
naturalness of the music (assuming an accurate polypropylene cap is used.)
The difference in naturalness, and sensitivity is profound.
Specs sheets do not mean much when comparing components.
Virtually all audio components use multiple electrolytic capacitors.
(My lab designs do not except for the high voltage output which is
bypassed with poly caps.)
Any small change, such as bending an inductor lead, or bypassing a 2 ohm
resistor with megohms, the response and inner detail change is perceived.
Cheers
pos
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