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| Re: Ukraine [message #98006 is a reply to message #98005] |
Mon, 16 September 2024 09:11   |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18772
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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Back then - in the 1990s - most of the former-Soviet states were all buddies. They all felt themselves to be Russian by culture but hopeful to "westernize." They wanted to have the "good life" that they perceived we have in America. But they all thought themselves as Russians. By this, I mean the Ukrainians, Moldovans, Armenians, Belorussians, Azerbaijani, and many of the other former-Soviet Moslem states.
There were some former-Soviet states that were anti-Russian - like Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia - but most were not. Most former-soviet states were more than friendly to Russia and considered themselves to still be Russian, at least by culture and language. They often identified as such - for example, you could ask the residents of these countries their nationality and most of them would say, "Russian." But they did consider their countries and their politics to be Western-style democracies - they were proud of their independence - and they were hopeful for change.
That is true of Russia as well. The majority of people there were hopeful to become a free market country, to enjoy economic success and to trade with America and Europe.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #98007 is a reply to message #98006] |
Mon, 16 September 2024 11:22 |
Rusty
Messages: 1170
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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I think if you were to read more of Jeffery Sachs and other progressive economists. That you would come to realize that our country had and still has nothing but contempt for Russia. As it has for since beyond the Russian revolution and back to Britain's disdain going back to the 19th century. Our economic involvement with Russia after the Soviet collapse was only insofar as what our oligarchy thought it could gain out of their natural resources. Oil and gas mainly and minerals.
Yes, Russia and all the former Soviet states were ready for westernization. The centralized planning of economy was an inefficient way to promote innovation from competition promoted by the private sector. The west was still on a roll then from the Keynesian economics having influenced our economies. But Neoliberalism was taking hold from it's establishment fully from Regan's two terms. Capitalist financializing was getting a toe hold. And financial dominance in an economy is parasitic to its society.
At this point Russia has no interest in being a part in the western neoliberal, so called, free market economy. They and China, India, Brazil and South Africa are the original members of BRICS. And the combined trade within BRICS and other countries willing join are greater than our G7 countries.
This wouldn't have gained it's traction if it weren't for our country's shameful and arrogant foreign policy. It's literally forced countries to adapt away from our economic policies. This wouldn't have happened without the miracle of China's socialist government and private business hybrid economy. Particularly with their main banking sector being a public entity. No private, financialized, speculation that plays havoc with our economy.
We are our worst enemy to ourselves. But we lash out at trying to hold on to our perception of the worlds only exceptional, indispensable country.
The party's over. We may antagonize China, try to contain Russia and bully smaller nations to play by our rules that we makeup for our benefit. But the world is changing away from our sole dominance as it used to be.
It's high time.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #98008 is a reply to message #98007] |
Mon, 16 September 2024 12:44 |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18772
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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I think there's a huge disconnect between the populations of all the former-Soviet countries and their governments. And I think that's largely true here too. I think we are growing more and more disconnected from our government here.
But that is maybe sort of beside the point. I think the point is - one that we seem to agree upon - that Russia and frankly, all of the former-Soviet countries were largely ignored by the United States until fairly recently. We did nothing to help their economies or to pull them into any sort of alignment with the United States.
To be very honest, I wondered why we did that. It seemed to me that when the cold war wall fell, we would want to embrace that. To "finish the job," so to speak, but in a good way. It seemed so possible to me. There were literally millions of Russians - from all of those countries - that wanted to embrace the west. They were starving and living in what you or I would consider cheap apartments. Families with a mother and father having advanced degrees living in squalor and starving to death. They definitely wanted change and saw the west as the way to get that change. They idealized us.
I remember back then very well. In the early 1990s, many of my customers were oil companies, mostly manufacturers of equipment for oil-well completions. These were companies that made pump-jacks, engines, tubing, packers, liner-hangers, etc. They started trying to trade with companies in the former Soviet Union. But the problem had already started. The novi-russki had already started buying up the stock in the oil companies there. Our American companies couldn't do business with them - not because they were afraid of ethics laws (which would have been another hurdle to jump) - but because control of the oil companies was already being taken over by thugs. It was literally unsafe to do business with them.
So these American oil equipment manufacturers didn't even have a chance to start talking about how to navigate what would have been Russian regulations and tariffs, many of which were actually bribes. But bribes there aren't always the same as what you would think of here. Some are almost more like a tip that you pay a waitress - not actually some big crime - but American rules may have made that hard to navigate. Still, that's a side-issue, not the main point.
The main point is that even in the early 1990s, Russia had a problem just beginning. The problem was that the novi-russki had started taking over business there. The privatization idea was a good one - to give every Russian worker stock in the company they worked for - but it was maybe a little naive 'cause most people had no idea what value stock ownership was, and they were hungry, so they sold it cheap. Who was there to buy it? People that were already corrupt and had some disposable income. The mob families that sold drugs and prostitutes on the black market had money. So they bought stock in the oil companies and anything else with value.
I wondered to myself, why aren't we doing anything about that? There are millions of good people over there that actually want to live the "American dream." They idealized us. Why not help them? Many of them were highly skilled, and most were wanting to be safe and free. We had a lot of goodwill over there.
But we did nothing. We let the novi-russki take over and gain strength for a couple decades. The Russian government now is just a bunch of mobsters with nukes. They're truly horrible people. It's nothing like the Soviets were. It's much, much worse.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #98013 is a reply to message #98012] |
Tue, 17 September 2024 11:25 |
Rusty
Messages: 1170
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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I think that's a matter of conjecture with the continuous paranoia of Russia and Putin in our foreign policy beliefs. His standing in his country is solid. The people there are enjoying a better quality of life now. And the Ukrainian war is justifiable throughout their publics consensus as well. They'd like it to end for sure. They have lost many lives as well.
This is our doings by design that like our policy in Israel and the general mess we've made in the Middle East over the years. Bosnia, Vietnam. The list is much larger and contributes to where our standing in the world is nowadays, economically and politically.
We have no rational diplomacy. As Jeffrey Sachs points out.
https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/w8jwrwhcnmf9bf2dmwfy57l85r47af
Do we continue with this charade? Upping the ante proxy-wise with Russia by hinting at long range weapons to strike within Russia to keep this fiasco going. Endangering a bigger more dangerous war. A war with tactical nuclear weapons then full throttle nuclear exchange. For what? For prestige, to keep our numero-uno concept intact?
The slogan of, "Ukraine is fighting for freedom & democracy" is being replaced by senator Lindsey Graham hitting the Sunday talking head shows a couple weeks back that Ukraine has vast mineral deposits that will be subverted to Russia and China if we don't keep this going.
Then there's China we antagonize constantly.
This policy is nutso!
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