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Home » xyzzy » Dungeon » Ukraine
| Ukraine [message #97013] |
Thu, 21 September 2023 15:13  |
Rusty
Messages: 1187
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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What started out as a noble fight against a dastardly aggressor has turned into another fine mess Olly. The United States has co-opted many governments and regime's since WWII. Studies have listed over 64 covert and 6 overt regime changes since then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
Ukraine is the latest in that our State Dept. essentially did a carrot & stick with Ukraine to go up against an opponent far superior in strength and capability to thwart the misaligned dream of joining NATO to encircle Russia. A fantasy of our own neocon national security agencies. The result has been billions dollars and Euros of arms sent in a vain attempt to have Ukraine by proxy, fight the Russians and even maybe topple Vladimir Putin.
The Ukraine's are finished essentially. We couldn't even provide enough artillary shells for them. The dead and wounded are in the 100's of thousands. Such an unnecessary waste of human tragedy. And we antagonize China as our next target of a Crusades like war mongering project.
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/09/how-will-the-biden-administration-cope-with-its-loss-in-ukraine.html#more
Our country is in the throws of a vexing dilemma of it's own making. And it uses the military industrial complex that Dwight Eisenhower warned about to try and carry out dubious national security perceptions. The rest of the world with the majority of population thinks otherwise now. That's a good thing.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #97014 is a reply to message #97013] |
Fri, 22 September 2023 18:28  |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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I hope Ukraine is victorious soon. I'm really upset to see what I consider to be more like a civil war than anything else. And it's not even a real civil war - Ukraine is already independent. It's just that there were lots of people in Russia, Ukraine and in the Crimean peninsula that share family ties and deep friendship bonds. Those have been severely tested and, in many cases, irreconcilably broken.
You may remember Alona from the 1990s. She and I have maintained a friendship and I also remain pretty close with her brother Alex, who is a soldier in Ukraine. Their family lives in Odessa, and I've been there several times.
I don't really consider the politics - I just side with the people I know there. I do what I can to help. Since I know them personally, I send a little money from time to time. Like I said, I don't think about the politics to consider whether money from our government is being well-spent. I just want the people I know to be safe.
Beyond that, I know that the novi russkiy and Putin have gone off their rocker. Ironically, the people of the former Soviet Union used to see the United States like a "spoiled fat cat" and imagined Americans as narcissistic entitled people, looking like the man on the monopoly game box.
To some extent, we have been entitled and we are lucky to have what we have. We forget that here in this country sometimes, and we probably have for over 50 years. So to some extent, that view of Americans is a little bit true. We can be a little bit entitled, and our politicians are probably not the best examples we could be proud of.
But Russia has way outdone us there. The narcisstic traits of Putin and the so-called oligarchs have pushed so far past human decency as to rank them more as sociopaths and psychopaths. They are as entitled as any human can get. So now the Russian people might want to get their own house in order before looking over here at us.
A little over 100 years ago, the tovarish (comrades) of the Bolshevik army assassinated their tsar and his family because they thought the royal family was out of touch. So for those living in Russia today, they might want to remember that little bit of history and to look at what they have now - which is an order of magnitude worse.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #97015 is a reply to message #97014] |
Sat, 23 September 2023 07:22 |
Rusty
Messages: 1187
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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I empathize with the Ukrainians, but they can't win this proxy war. You see, it was a diplomatic boondoggle from the get go. That is the machinations of our Pentagon diplomacy. It's a political FUBAR of the first degree. Like all of America's foray's in foreign meddling, coup's and wars. The tragic consequences are always the people, the human suffering the destruction and we dust our hands off and traipse off to another "encounter".
Ukraine I've read has had a turbulent history of conquests and occupations, but it's primary alignment has necessarily been the function of neutrality with it's sovereignty.
The west has antagonized Russia since the fall of the Soviet state in the 90's. It has done so with NATO. After the cold war ended NATO expansion commenced. Against promises first to Gorbachev then Yeltsin to the contrary. Economist Jeffrey Sachs is a good reference to this as he having been placed in Russia as an advisor to the government for restructuring their economy then. Which none of his advise was taken over objections by our orthodox economic hierarchy. Another story.
Needless to say, a red line ended with Ukraine and NATO influence with Putin. As you say, their mutual history. Imagine Mexico being armed and aligned by the Chinese. As George Bush famously said, "This will not stand". What would this country do?
What this war has revealed though is NATO's weakness. Our bloated military industrial complex that can't supply even enough artillary and "uber" weapons that get destroyed like any other. And Russia's ability to dance around our foolish sanctions we illegally, (world court) dish out to nations. As a side note, Venezuela. Who's population hurt by it are now at our border crossings.
And Russia's economy that was suppose to be crippled has regained it's footing. Especially in military industrial production. The Ukraine's are outgunned and outnumbered by a large margin. And they have sustained terrible loss of life and wounded.
This war should end as soon as possible. But it won't due to the entrenchment of crippling notions of political gamesmanship. Such is our declining imperial empire as well. The only real entitlements of our country, go to the wealthy that pull the strings of the politics here.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #97020 is a reply to message #97013] |
Sun, 24 September 2023 21:22 |
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gofar99
Messages: 1949
Registered: May 2010
Location: Southern Arizona
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Illuminati (5th Degree) |
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Hi, interesting viewpoints. I generally won't get into this type of discussion, but this being a rather non-adversiorial (ie friendly) site I will put a few thoughts on this topic. On others it is too likely to cause hard feelings and problems. That everything is all screwed up is a given. But it begs a few questions. First does anyone feel it is OK for one country to just take over another? And perhaps a caveat on that if so under what circumstances? A specific one is since the USSR once controlled some Baltic countries would be interested if they tried the same thing there? Should we interfere? If so, why? To protect our global influence, needed resources (from others)? What do we gain or lose if we get involved? The world is now a global economy whether we like it or not. We don't have to like or agree with everyone, but it is in our best interest not to piss someone off enough to cause the end of civilization. Indeed, life would be a lot better if we all got along. A pipe dream for sure. On sanctions I agree...they are largely ineffective. Saber rattling and threating are equally useless. Since there are now several countries that have the ability to cause a nuclear war, the actual threat is not so strong as it once was. If started, the initiator will be as badly destroyed as the target(s). No one wins, a lose -lose affair. Now we have a mostly conventional fray that really no one wanted and it is unclear how to end it. A big complication is the overlap of the populations. The entire region has a mix of several cultures and trying to draw a line where one starts and another ends is really difficult. Worse, the geography of the region is no help separating one area from another. One thing I believe is that wars are waged by the leaders. The general population would like to just carry on their day to day lives. I place almost all of the blame on Putin for this war. I suspect he thought and was advised by some individuals that he could just take over the parts of Ukraine he wanted like what happened in Crimea. Bad call. Now the issue is how to (for him) save face and end it. I personally don't see any solution at this point.
Good Listening
Bruce
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| Re: Ukraine [message #97022 is a reply to message #97021] |
Mon, 25 September 2023 09:20 |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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I don't agree with that assessment, and please do remember - I'm coming from a position of knowing several Russians and Ukrainians. I've been there.
Ukraine has many citizens that are Russians or that have Russian roots and they still consider themselves to be Ukrainian and oppose the war. They feel betrayed. The Ukrainian population is a mix of Russians and Ukrainians, mostly Orthodox Catholics and Jews. Almost all of them consider themselves to be Russian and Ukrainian, or at least they did before the Putin war.
Crimea is somewhat independent of Russia and Ukraine. It has a long history of being that way. But it has been happily independent of Russia and a part of Ukraine since 1991. The Sevastopol port has not been Russian since then. Crimea was illegally annexed by Russia, which is a much different thing than independently deciding to join Russia. That is a fact.
I can tell you with a great deal of certainty - that comes from knowing people that came from all parts of Russia, Ukraine and Crimea - that this is not at all something anyone wanted except Putin and some - not all - of his novi russkiy cohorts. They are just ugly, greedy, power-hungry psychopaths.
Stop watching folks over here on the television. They are just talking heads, spouting propaganda. Mostly, it's people that don't have a clue about what they are talking about. They just latch onto something they think is a story and blab on about it. Some people, though, apparently have gotten into bed with one or more on the novi russkiy and they then have their own agendas. And some in the media talk about that.
But it isn't a political thing, certainly not one of empire-building from the West. If we wanted to do that, we could have done it at any time after 1991. I personally wondered why we didn't back then. Ukraine wanted to be part of the West, and actively strove for that. They would have been a great ally, especially back then when Turkey seemed to be having problems with radicalized religious zealots.
The problem is the novi russkiy and their theft of oil from the Russian population. Back when the wall fell, most Russian people didn't understand capitalism. And by "Russian people" I mean Russians, Ukrainians, Moldovans, Crimeans, Uzbekistanis, Armenians, etc. I'm talking about everyone in every country that was once part of the Soviet Union. They were all given what was essentially stock in the companies they worked for. They were called vouchers. But most people didn't understand the significance of that.
Who knew? The black-market criminals of Russia, that's who. They knew how free-markets worked because they had been selling drugs and sex for years. They bought the vouchers for cheap because the people that had them didn't know their value. They were called novi russkiy back then, and they're who people over here now call "the oligarchs."
So lots of Russian industries are owned by these thugs. Energy companies are probably the most lucrative. And that's where the problem lies. It's all about them.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #97024 is a reply to message #97023] |
Mon, 25 September 2023 11:13 |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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Dude, I'm telling you I was there in the 1990s when those bloggers didn't exist. Nobody in America - including our politicians - had any influence in that area. Nobody here cared. Not for better or worse, no harm no foul - just saying we weren't exerting influence there. I wish we had been. It seemed to me it would have made sense. And it would have been easier then too, 'cause the novi russki hadn't had time to exploit their stolen resources yet.
I remember hearing them brag in the 1990s that they lost more oil from inefficient wells than America produced. I heard that because a lot of my computer customers were oil businesses in Oklahoma and Texas and they hoped to sell completions equipment to Russia but couldn't deal with the novi russkiy 'cause nobody with any ethics (or sense) can deal with guys like that.
The Russians at that time were making oil wells without PBR technology, which is a process Americans invented in the early 1900s. It prevents waste and also makes the wells more clean, because there is an outer casing filled with brine (saltwater) and an inner tubing string that flows the oil. The tubing string can be replaced when the acids in the oil damage it. So since the Russians weren't doing that, the casings eroded and the oil seeped out into the earth. That's why they had so much waste, and there was mutual interest in improving Russian oil technologies.
But again, reasonable businesses couldn't work with novi russkiy so lots of deals fell flat. I saw lots of them, lots of attempts and lots of failures 'cause legitimate American businesses just couldn't take the risk of dealing with Russian mobsters. They hoped to be paid in oil - which would have worked nicely - but they were dealing with total thugs and it just couldn't be done.
Back then, America political interests were not interested in stepping in in any sort. It was all too small and too insignificant to be on our radar. That one fact alone should tell you that we weren't interested in empire-building. For right or wrong, we just weren't. I watched it for years. I was surprised, to tell the truth. After living my whole life in the "cold war," I would have thought we would have stepped in and helped build those fledgling democracies. Seemed like the right thing to do.
But we didn't.
So that says everything. The fact that we're stepping in now is something else entirely. It's not America trying to build empires. If anything, there might be individuals here that have their hands in the "mobster cooking jar." But in any case, America isn't the bad guy here. The bad guys are novi russkiy and anyone slimy enough to deal with them. That's the problem here. Anyone that says otherwise is spreading propaganda, either intentionally to hide their inappropriate relationships with mobsters or unintentionally just to have a story to tell.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #97025 is a reply to message #97024] |
Mon, 25 September 2023 13:10 |
Rusty
Messages: 1187
Registered: May 2018
Location: Kansas City Missouri
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Illuminati (3rd Degree) |
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Well actually, we did have influence in post Soviet economic planning. The western Shock therapy mentioned. This is a historical fact. Sorry. I understand your personal influence having been to that country in that era. And from it I can understand some of what you're conveying as having merit. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. But I trust the analysis of Jeffrey Sachs and others in an official economic advisory capacity who were there too during that period. The chosen pathway was with financial liberalism. Privatization, monopoly rent, selling off assets, debt. Entitling the few, at the expense of debt deflation for the many. Rather like our own economy now.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how-shock-therapy-created-russian-oligarchs-and-paved-the-path-for-putin
I think most of the disinformation coming out of this conflict is from the vested interests of American and European Union have invested politically, monetarily and militarily in weapons in this debacle. The Ukraine offensive is stymied as it never had a chance without airpower. Probably why we haven't sent our expensive aircraft to be shot down or our jet powered tanks to be blown up. Still, it didn't have to occur. But the results are certainly real. As they always are from our foray's into other countries business. The list is long, but primary examples are Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.
As Mr. Ritter in his analysis laments, we choose not to believe despite the evidence. That's been the way with individuals, and governments, forever.
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| Re: Ukraine [message #97026 is a reply to message #97025] |
Mon, 25 September 2023 15:07 |
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Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
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Illuminati (33rd Degree) |
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The article linked in your previous post describes the Russian situation in the 1990s pretty well.
You might want to read that article again. It says exactly the same thing I've said here in this thread. It describes the novi russkiy, the attempts to privatize by vouchers and the beginnings of the problem that we see now.
We had very little to do with it. I wish we had done more to help the situation back then when it would have been more manageable.
There was one big event that happened back then where the West was involved. Well, not so much involved, more like made aware. When Ukraine agreed to release its Soviet era nuclear weapons in 1994, it did so with an agreement from Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its willingness to sign a non-proliferation treaty as a non-nuclear weapon state. The four parties signed the agreement at that time. But that's about all that happened back then. Nothing concrete was put in place to set actionable consequences for that agreement.
But other than that, there really was almost nothing happening. If there had been large-scale Western influence in the 1990s, it would have been visible. Western influence is only visible now because it's happening now. It wasn't visible in the 1990s because there wasn't anything to see back then.
What you could see back in the 1990s was attempts at influence from darker forces in Russia. Sometimes, the Ukrainian president or a mayor of a large city would be poisoned. This was common if a pro-Western official was elected. So even fairly early on, this kind of stuff was happening. It was sort of like what we saw in Chechnya, but bigger.
The West did nothing about it until very recently. Maybe that's 'cause we didn't need to do anything, I don't know. But still, there were no big pushes to bring Ukraine into NATO or anything like that. There was no economic planning or financial infusions of some sort from the West, other than individual efforts from private businessmen. I personally wish there had been but could clearly see that there was not. Not until recently.
Honestly, I am kind of proud that the United States and Britain as well as other European nations have stepped up to the plate to honor that non-proliferation agreement. I don't think we had really done much 'til now, but now that Putin has stepped off the deep end, I'm glad he's getting push-back from us and the rest of the world.
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