Home » Audio » Thermionic Emissions » Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias
Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9072 is a reply to message #9070] Sun, 17 July 2005 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Sorry, it appears we posted at the same time and you have answered my questions. Disregard that last post and thank you very much. I will digest this now.

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9073 is a reply to message #9072] Sun, 17 July 2005 16:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Forty2wo is currently offline  Forty2wo
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Registered: May 2009
Master
Do you have a copy of "Beginner's guide to tube audio design" by Bruce Rozenblit. If not get one.
Each time I start a new project I dig out this book. Read it 10 times in 2 years with highliter in hand and you will be an expert.

I thing it is time for a "tube tinker's library thread"
Do you think?...John

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9074 is a reply to message #9073] Sun, 17 July 2005 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Yes you are absolutely correct. Here's my problem. As I aged it becomes increasingly difficult for me to follow abstract concepts. I have all this stuff memorised; but until I can picture in my mind how an AC voltage can ride on a DC current I am stymied. I have all the books; Radiotron/Rozenblitt/AARH/USN Training Series etc etc. When someone explains that to me so I can understand it intuitively I will buy them a drink. All my problems stem from that one thing.

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9075 is a reply to message #9074] Sun, 17 July 2005 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Get an oscilloscope and your problem will be solved. You will see a visual representation of the signal. DC is like an offset for the AC component. If the DC level is 10 volts, the average AC level is shifted 10 volts from where it would be if the DC level was 0. The scope will let you see this, and it will become intuitive for you.

Here's another thing to visualize that might help you. Picture a swimming pool, only half full. So the surface is 3 feet down from the edge. Throw a rock in and ripples ride on the surface. Now pour in some water to fill the pool. It is now 3 feet higher. Throw a rock in the pool and the same ripples appear. They're the same height (amplitide) and the same rate (frequency). The only thing that's changed is the height of the surface of the pool, it's now 3 feet higher. That's the way an AC component rides on a DC component of a signal.


Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9076 is a reply to message #9075] Sun, 17 July 2005 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Yeah but the pool ain't flowing backwards and forwards like an AC signal. Plus the AC is current while the DC is potential. See what a problem child I am here.

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9077 is a reply to message #9076] Sun, 17 July 2005 20:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thermionic is currently offline  Thermionic
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Registered: May 2009
Master
Some personal musings on operating class, in conjunction with Wayne's.

Class A means that the tube (or transistor) is biased so that it conducts through the full 360 degrees of the AC signal input cycle, at the full unclipped output of the amplifier. This ordinarily means an operating point that's about halfway between cutoff and saturation. Class A amplifiers exhibit very little increase in conduction between idle and the point of clipping, as they basically idle wide open.

Class A is the most linear, lowest distortion operating class, since it keeps the tube well away from the highly non-linear cutoff region on the negative swing of the input signal cycle. But, it's very inefficient and wastes a great deal of it's potential power as heat. Somewhere in the area of 10% efficiency for a Class A power stage is pretty normal. Since the power tube in a SE amp handles the entire signal, all SE amps must be Class A to amplify the entire waveform.

Let me see, "hard" Class A now............. A tube is said to be biased into Class A when it conducts for the full 360 degrees at the full, unclipped output of the amplifier. But, the *unofficial* term "biased harder" into "hard" or "hot" Class A is used by some to describe when it's bised even hotter than this point. Class A is Class A, and you can't get "more" Class A, but this is just biasing it to a point of very high conduction, way more than necessary.

The earmarks of when you really got that thing cooking that way are reduced tube life, lower power output, and more heat generation, but also lower output Z and also (sometimes!) a pleasing sound (sometimes not!). In general, the higher the plate current in a Class A output stage, the lower the output Z of the tube, and the higher the damping factor over the loudspeaker. But, generally the plate voltage must be lowered as well in order to prevent exceeding the design maximum plate dissipation wattage. The super high current/low voltage/low output Z operating point is extremely inefficient, and is not without it's own set of caveats.

Manualblock, the OPT controls the reflected impedance load the tubes see from the speaker. Output Z here refers to the output impedance of the tube itself, independent of the reflected load of the OPT.

Class AB means that the device conducts for appreciably more than 180 degrees of the input cycle, but not more. The region near cutoff (excessively low plate current) is very non-linear, and is avoided in Class AB operation.This also prevents crossover notch distortion in PP amps when the signal is "handed off" at the zero degree point. Each tube of the PP pair conducts enough past 180 degrees that both are still fully on and up into a linear region of their operation at the crossover point. They burn up a lot less potential power as heat, and are therefore much more efficient than Class A amplifiers, and are able to put way more more power into their load as a result. But, Class AB operation is also higher distortion than Class A.
There's an old wive's tale that "Class AB amps are Class A at low output." They are NOT, otherwise operating class means nothing. They operate in a manner similar to Class A at low outputs, but they are still Class AB.

Class B amplifiers are biased so that the devices conduct for exactly 180 degrees of the input cycle, and no more. The distortion is very high, so they are not used for audio, but for radio transmission.

In response to how an AC signal rides on a DC voltage, there have been some great answers posted here. One thing I'd like to add that might help is that while DC is *always* a positive or negative voltage, the fact that AC is both in alternation means that the average voltage of AC is zero (i.e. 10DCV- plus 10DCV+ averages 0). That's one of the things that allow it to ride separately on the DC without affecting it, and vice versa.

Thermionic

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9078 is a reply to message #9076] Mon, 18 July 2005 05:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Actually, the water in the pool analogy is very close. The only difference is that the behavior we're looking at in electricity is fundamentally two-dimensional and the pool is three-dimensional. But if you look at a profile of the surface, the ways they act are almost exactly the same.

Forget the "current" part of the phrases "direct current" and "alternating current". Current only flows when we have a closed circuit. The terms are labels that come from a description of power circuits, one having fixed potential and therefore fixed current when loaded, the other having a sine wave output, and therefore an alternating current when loaded. But when we talk about potentials in general, we almost always refer to a steady potential as DC and a moving one as AC. That's the part to focus on, whether the potential is fixed or moving.


Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9079 is a reply to message #9077] Mon, 18 July 2005 06:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Wayne and Thermionic; This is good stuff. You may not realise the exact phrase that does the trick but I do and there are a couple in here. I need some time to mull this over but this help combined with the books is great. I think I see now that to understand this stuff you must take it in small intervals that deal with a specific issue of amplifier construction, ie Bias Settings. The learning curve though is pretty steep and the lightbulbs are going off.
Waynes water analogy is very good and your pointing out that the AC voltage sums to zero is also. Waynes statement that current is only there with a load and to disregard it when dealing with potential is a biggie. The conduction paragraph has helped greatly. I say this in order to try and pinpoint for you helpfull guys what is helping me.
I will report back after some thought; thanks again J.R.

Re: Fixed Bias v. Cathode Bias [message #9080 is a reply to message #9079] Mon, 18 July 2005 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thermionic is currently offline  Thermionic
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Registered: May 2009
Master
Howdy manualblock,

Glad we said something that rang a bell! I really liked Wayne's analogy that current is only there with a load, and to disregard it when dealing with potential. It's like a water pipe. There is *always* pressure (voltage) in it. But, there is no flow (current) until you open the tap. Herein is a good analogy of how inductors and capacitors work as well.

Think of a capacitor as a small pipe with a piston and a one-way release valve in it, holding a high pressure on it's internal contents. When the pressure in the system it's connected to drops, the one-way valve opens. It's able to help maintain the pressure (voltage) in the system, even if the main high pressure pump were turned on and off quickly several times.

An inductor is like a garden hose reel with LOTS of hose on it. When you turn the water off at the spigot, it still flows from the nozzle for a long time. There is a large volume (current) stored within it, and when the nozzle is opened the volume is constant, even if you were to turn the spigot on and off quickly several times.

Capacitors and inductors are "mirror image" components, they do the exact opposite things.

Capacitors:

Store voltage in an electrical field
Block DC and pass AC
Resist any change in DC voltage across them

Inductors:

Store current in a magnetic field
Pass DC and block AC
Resist any change in DC current through them

Thermionic

Tube basics [message #9081 is a reply to message #9079] Mon, 18 July 2005 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Forty2wo is currently offline  Forty2wo
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Registered: May 2009
Master
Did you ever get a chance to look at this site. I think he dose a great job of takeing some of the mystery out of all of this.

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