Home » Audio » Thermionic Emissions » Air Dialectric caps
Re: Sorry, you're wrong [message #8952 is a reply to message #8950] Fri, 13 May 2005 17:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
muman is currently offline  muman
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Let me guess --- this RIAA circuit is something you do.

The best tuner capacitors are sealed and use a real vacuum. Those tuner caps in old radios *are* the cause for drifting. Ceramic capacitors weren't usually in them, mica was. Some old tubular ceramic capacitors were used, but they didn't drift like disc ceramics.

Better tuner caps use mica or poly film between plates. Better still to tune with a crystal or a digital synthesizer. Leave the tuner caps for use as long wire resonators aka antenna tuners.

Re: Sorry, you're wrong, with references [message #8954 is a reply to message #8952] Fri, 13 May 2005 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
muman is currently offline  muman
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Do a search on the internet for "paper oil capacitors". Not talking about oil filled capacitors. That's industrial, an audio fad. Look for paper in oil. It shows a veritable top dawg list of biggest players in high end hifi. To name a few, try Jupiter Beeswax, Angela, Audio Note, Sprague, Jensen, Goodall, Gudeman, Astron, West, Dearborn and so on.

Steve Bench says "paper in oil is extremely clean, best of the group. That may be one reason why some people prefer the sound of the paper capacitors. Although not recorded, oil capacitors in general appear to be very linear. These caps also appear to have relatively stable characteristics with change in frequency."

http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html
http://www.jupitercondenser.com/jupitercapacitors.htm
http://www.angela.com/catalog/capacitors/Angela_PIO.html
http://www.audionote.co.uk/kits/an_capacitors_paper_in_oil.htm
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/htmldocs/JAFPIO.html
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/htmldocs/JCFPIO.html
http://store.tubedepot.com/vinoip.html

I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. If you like using old tuner caps that's just peachy with me. I just think it's a weird fad and you could do better, that's all.

Re: Dielectric Constant [message #8955 is a reply to message #8942] Sat, 14 May 2005 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
metasonix is currently offline  metasonix
Messages: 103
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
>Imagine how changes in humity


Humity?

Your references say nothing about air because ... [message #8956 is a reply to message #8954] Sat, 14 May 2005 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Triode_Kingdom is currently offline  Triode_Kingdom
Messages: 13
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
they're referring to values larger than are practical with air caps. That doesn't contradict decades of engineers who know air and vacuum caps are much more stable than those other dielectrics. Like you, I don't care what components you use, but your limited knowledge in this area is likely to mislead other readers. Ask Steve Bench if he would use a paper/oil cap to trim the oscillator in an FM receiver. You just don't know this topic.



Do whatever you want. [message #8957 is a reply to message #8956] Sun, 15 May 2005 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
muman is currently offline  muman
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Use rusty nails for all I care.

Re: Do whatever you want. [message #8959 is a reply to message #8957] Sun, 15 May 2005 06:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
So now you pick up your toys and leave? Address the issue. Steve Bench has a reputation for knowing his stuff. Some of us would like to understand this thread.

Re: Do whatever you want. [message #8961 is a reply to message #8959] Sun, 15 May 2005 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
muman is currently offline  muman
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Not much more to say, IMO. Variable caps were made for radio tuners, and worked with relatively low voltage, high frequency signals. They are not used anymore --- good radios use digital tuners instead. They do have all the other capacitor types though, and they don't drift.

The air between plates of tuner capacitors will become ozone and arcing may occur unless voltage remains low. Dust and other particulates can (will) get in between the plates and collect on them. These caps were never meant for audio. It takes a leap of faith to say they will do anything good for audio, and a lot of gumption to say they have a neutral sonic signature. I guess that is one man's opinion, but I don't see any references to support it. No legititmate studies have been done, no manufacturers have come forth with a premium audio capacitor using air as a dielectric.

I could see a premium cap made with a vacuum dielectric. That might be good. I'm skeptical that scavenging old radio tuners is good for audio circuits though. On the other hand, there has been universal acceptance of other types of caps for audio such as polys, papers, etc.

Re: Dielectric Constant (of water?) [message #8962 is a reply to message #8945] Sun, 15 May 2005 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
muman is currently offline  muman
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
Was that change 0-30% humidity or 70-100%? I would like to see the study someone did. Where did you hear about it? Do you know where I can find it?

Macanudo [message #8963 is a reply to message #8955] Sun, 15 May 2005 20:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
muman is currently offline  muman
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
My screen is so brown from cigar smoke I couldn't see it sorry. Wait, I'll clean it off and while I'm doing it, I'll clean my capacitors too.

I always do [message #8964 is a reply to message #8961] Mon, 16 May 2005 00:20 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Triode_Kingdom is currently offline  Triode_Kingdom
Messages: 13
Registered: May 2009
Chancellor
>Variable caps were made for radio tuners, and worked with relatively low voltage, high frequency signals.

You don't know what you're talking about. Air variables were once the mainstay of high voltage circuitry in both receivers and tube-type transmitters. Many are rated at well over a kilovolt.

>They are not used anymore --- good radios use digital tuners instead.

Depends on your definition of "good." The lowest possible noise floor is achieved with free-running oscillators (caps/coils or crystals), not with digital synthesizers. Digital tuners are stable because they're locked to a crystal, but other aspects of performance suffer due to the synthesis loop.

>The air between plates of tuner capacitors will become ozone and arcing may occur unless voltage remains low. Dust and other particulates can (will) get in between the plates and collect on them.

You're just guessing. You think that will happen, but in fact, it's not an issue. I have a variable matching network over 50 years old with air caps that I frequently subject to RF voltages in excess of 3 kV. The caps have never been cleaned or serviced, and they work as well as the day they were made.

>These caps were never meant for audio.

The market for most air variable caps is high voltage, high frequency. Most audio circuits typically need higher values of capacitance than are practical with an air dielectric. I assure you, no one would use chemical electrolytes or oil if they could achieve the same capacitance in a reasonably-sized air capacitor.

>It takes a leap of faith to say they will do anything good for audio, and a lot of gumption to say they have a neutral sonic signature.

How much do you actually know about dielectric properties? Do you know that all common dielectrics produce audio frequency distortion and hysteresis except air and vacuum?

>No legititmate studies have been done

Dielectric properties of insulators such as air, glass, oil, vacuum, and the like have been well defined for decades.

>no manufacturers have come forth with a premium audio capacitor using air as a dielectric.

For the same reasons no one markets a 100,000 horsepower car - you can't afford it, and it won't fit in your driveway. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be fast. Air capacitors in the values needed for most audio circuitry would be very large and expensive.

>I'm skeptical that scavenging old radio tuners is good for audio circuits though.

No one has suggested doing that.

>universal acceptance of other types of caps for audio such as polys, papers, etc.

Of course they're accepted - those dielectrics produce small, affordable components; a convenient, if less than perfect, solution. They're certainly not the equal of air (or direct coupling) though in any fundamental electrical respect.



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