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Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6880 is a reply to message #6879] Tue, 23 May 2006 06:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thats interesting; I must plead ingnorance here. So which church do you attend that takes communion without the belief in Transubstantiation? Actually; what is the point of communion without that?

Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6883 is a reply to message #6880] Tue, 23 May 2006 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Illuminati (33rd Degree)

All Protestant Christian churches I am aware of believe that the communion is a symbol of Christ's sacrifice, not actual changing of the substance. Transubstantiation is a uniquely Catholic and Orthodox thing, but I think the Episcopal church believes in transubstantiation too. All others that I am aware of do not.


Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6884 is a reply to message #6883] Tue, 23 May 2006 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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I see; thats something from the Lutheran's? Or Baptist?

Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6885 is a reply to message #6879] Tue, 23 May 2006 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
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I don`t know about US, but here in Europe is a very impolite to make a negative opinions (especially in public) about other religions and their holy ceremonials.
Interestingly, even during the war in ex-YU, through the all hate-talk against enemies and propaganda, I never heard negativeness in our media about Ortodox or Muslim religion and about their sacraments and sacred things. It`s too low, and isn`t right.
IMO - sometimes it`s better to have a (negative) private opinion - private. If for nothing else, ... you can be, for example, in the Irish pub, after midnight...

Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6888 is a reply to message #6885] Tue, 23 May 2006 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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I agree, absolutely. I've found that one must be careful what one says on public messageboards, just as a matter of courtesy and gentlemanly discourse. If I've offended you or any other Catholic, I sincerely apologize. As I said in this thread, I have a lot of Catholic and Orthodox friends, was married to an Orthodox wife for several years and had many friendly and spirited conversations with the Orthadox Father. I have the highest respect for people of Orthodox and Catholic faiths.


Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6889 is a reply to message #6884] Tue, 23 May 2006 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Protestants include Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Pentecostals and many others. I would loosely describe these as being slightly more gnostic and less ritualistic than Catholic and Orthodox traditions. Each of these groups is in general agreement on the main points, but several details are seen differently. One of the main things is that a Protestant does not find special authority given to the Roman Catholic Church, and instead, believes that a man may approach God directly, and find answers and salvation through his own relationship with God. A Protestant believes that he does not have to "go through" the Catholic Church to get to God, he can access God directly through his meditation, prayers and studies.

Catholics believe that the Pope is Christ's representative here on Earth, sort of a stand-in for the almighty. This gives a hierarchal power structure and a sort of chain of command. The Catholic believer should approach his Church, who will then instruct him on the matters at hand. In early times, most people could not read or write, so Church scholars were really the only ones qualified to interpret scripture and so this structure made sense. Whether it does today is a matter of personal opinion.


Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6891 is a reply to message #6889] Tue, 23 May 2006 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks. I have a question and since you are so kind as to share this without the hype then I will take a chance and ask.
Earlier you said you will not take communion with any sect that believes in transubstantiation. That suggests to me you don't believe that whole premise and that you believe in symbolic representation.
How does one come to have such a set of belief's? I mean belief by definition is the acceptance of an idea as truth without proof. So how do you distinguish between what belief's you will entertain and which belief's you refute? What is the mechanism of deciding that provokes that certainty? The basis upon which you make a determination to accept one thing over another?
I admitt that has always puzzled me. I understand intuition; but to me that has somepart that relates to your experience and subliminally expresses a thought not readily available on the surface of consciousness . It has a trigger. But belief's; whats the foundation that creates a protocal for one over another.
I understand the concept of faith because that is really something intrinsic to the organism. But to hold belief's independant of any cause is strange to me.
See; I haven't had any one who specifically stated his or hers objection to a religous concept like that. They either accept the whole bag or dispute the everyday matters of living like ethical or moral positions. Like the Catholic Church's refusal to ordain females. They don't take a personal position of character; they take a position on moral grounds.
Does this make any sense?
Because your position transcends any ethical or moral consideration and seems to deal with a more intangible and diffuse reasoning. It's that intangibility I am hunting at the meaning for.
Thanks.

Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6892 is a reply to message #6891] Tue, 23 May 2006 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I was raised Christian, and in the "Bible Belt" of America. I am very comfortable with both the Protestant and Catholic versions of the Christian faith, and I do not want to be rebellious, certainly not against God. Nor do I want to be against any man that I think is sincerely trying to find truths and live a spiritual life. Because of this, I feel more in common with Christians and Catholics than I feel apart from them. I suppose this could also be said of other faiths too, particularly Jews and probably Moslems too. I have some Zoroastrian friends, and their religious text, traditions and culture have always fascinated me. And I also have a lot of Hindu friends, and their rich traditions are interesting to me as well.

But I am also somewhat of a scientific kind of person, maybe a critical thinker. That's how I'm built. So I had to reconcile those two things, faith and science. That drove me towards a belief system sort of like the gnostics, so when I discovered them, I immediately became interested.

A long time ago, I realized that science is a belief system not unlike religion. There are uncertainties and assumptions, hypothesis and theories. It seems concrete to me, but it is not. Still, it is a way of thinking that I am comfortable with. It is basically to hold as matter of principle the idea that truth should be sought by rigorous testing. I thought to myself that a God would probably not be insecure, and so would proably not mind an inquisitive subject. God would not mind proving himself and could stand up to scrutiny. So I decided not to be afraid to put God to the test. To me, faith is built like trust - It is built by testing and seeing repeated results that are as expected. That builds faith and ultimately wisdom.

I began to form a definition of God, one that is basically everything in the universe. Maybe the "I AM" of the Bible. The thing is, even an atheist scientist believes in the universe. So when one defines this way, they have no reservation that God exists. God's Will then, is the natural and physical laws of the universe. Some we understand, some we don't. My job is to understand things as well as possible, and to try and be part of the plan rather than trying to force it into something it isn't. Surely lots of other people have lots of other views and that's fine with me. This is just my take on things, or part of it. Probably not worth going into much more detail on an audio messageboard.


Re: My sister`s friend and other stories [message #6894 is a reply to message #6892] Wed, 24 May 2006 06:04 Go to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Well; I appreciate the input. The interesting thing about all this for me is the thought process behind it; and you gave a good description.
Thanks.

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