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Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60629 is a reply to message #60559] Wed, 19 August 2009 04:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PR Audio is currently offline  PR Audio
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Registered: July 2009
Location: Southern IL / Western KY
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Bob Brines wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 08:00

4. Americans are driven by price. Quality is irrelevant. Given the choice between quality and price, the average consumer will choose price every time.




Bob, in general I agree with you, but, I don't entirely agree with you on point 4. Toyota and Honda did very well for quite some time by emphasizing quality at a moderate price, NOT the lowest price around. Their Korean competitors started doing better once they, in turn, were able to improve their quality to the point that they didn't kill themselves by offering much longer warranties.

Conversely, based on price and economy, the Ford Focus should be a smash sales success, but, it's reputation for poor quality drove a lot of people away from it. (Including me - I bought a used Mazda MX-3 GS many years ago, and a used Toyota Matrix more recently, over a new Focus, and for higher prices to boot.)

Ok, I may be "weird", but are there more Focus's out there than Accords or Corrolas / Corrola based vehicles?


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Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60630 is a reply to message #60629] Wed, 19 August 2009 06:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob Brines is currently offline  Bob Brines
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Registered: May 2009
Location: Hot Springs Village, AR
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"No generality is worth a damn, including this one." --GBS

Cars, houses and a few other this are indeed different. Cars and more so trucks represent one's manhood. Detroit alienated the public with crappy QC and "planned obsolescence". (It is amusing to look back at a time when cars were designed to wear out in two years, now that we take out six year mortgages on new cars.) The Japanese stepped in with good QC and still today, the general opinion is that oriental cars are built better than American cars. This may be marginally true, but only marginally.

For everything else, may I mention Sam Walton?

Bob
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60634 is a reply to message #60558] Thu, 20 August 2009 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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Registered: May 2009
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HI Guys,
I agree with most of what has been said. I think the main reason the hifi industry is dying is because of the way people listen to music.
Most people listen to it casually or in the background. I often tell my friends: if you listen to music in the background, get a compact system. But if you like to sit down and lose yourself in the music, if how a cello sounds and a piano sounds and a trombone sounds matters to you, then you get started on a real good system.
Mastering engineers pretty much follow the trend: so if most folks listen to stuff in the background on cheapie systems, they will compress accordingly.

For the hifi industry to pick up, people need to be educated into listening to music and the joys it can bring. Really listening.

-akhilesh
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60635 is a reply to message #60634] Thu, 20 August 2009 20:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I suspect that demographics are responsible to a large degree. Seems to me the largest group of people that are really into music are teenagers and twenty-somethings. That's not to say some of us older guys aren't as into music as they are, but I do think many people stop listening to music regularly when they get older. It becomes less a part of many people's lives as they become adults.

Think about it - Almost everyone listens to music a lot in their youth and they make it a big part of their lives. But as they age, many people get busy, start to listen more to the news and current events, and rarely turn on the sound system unless its tied to their home theater. Once you've brought a couple of rug rats into the home, it gets harder to spend an hour of undivided attention to your favorite album.

When you were a kid, you could stay in your room for hours listening to music. You probably had your first kiss at a school dance - listening to music. You went everywhere with the stereo in your car going, knew all the current songs. We sometimes get sick of the kids with their stereos blasting in traffic, but hey, they're still enjoying music.

To be honest, I don't think I see the "hifi downturn" as much as maybe some other people do. I was always interested in making speakers inexpensive, and I think that keeps me plugged in to the youth market, especially the younger DIYers. At least some of my products appeal to this demographic.

At first, having inexpensive but high-quality speakers was a necessity because I was one of those kids wanting the best but having little spending money. Then later, as my disposable income grew, I was able to make more price-no-object designs. But even they are inexpensive compared to some audiophile offerings.

Most of the people I deal with buy kits, and while not recession proof, that's exactly the kind of product people buy when they are trying to save money. DIY seems to be counter-cyclic with respect to economic downturns, so when the economy gets weaker, DIY products seem to sell more. As a result, I almost never see any real change that I can pin on a downturn in hifi or even in the economy. It's a steady stream to me, with most of my builders being the same sort of person that would do their own car tune-ups or put in their own kitchen tile. They often want to pinch a penny but they also want it "right", and they think "if you want it right, you have to do it yourself."

I think that brings us back full circle, right back to where Fred was when he started this thread. Rolling Eyes

Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60689 is a reply to message #60634] Thu, 27 August 2009 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barryso is currently offline  Barryso
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Registered: May 2009
Master
One of my friends is one of the most musically knowledgeable folks I've ever met. He's just over 30 years old and knows stuff from the 1930's and later in the styles he likes (mostly rock and pop but he also knows blues and a little jazz).

He GLADLY attends the music nights the local "music crazies" hold from time to time. He loves listening to the big systems and always brings good music to hear on these systems.

But he has no interest in gear or in having gear.

A few years back when Jon Busch had his small open baffle speakers at the Lone Star Fest I decided to build a pair. It was a really cool project and a chance to see if the open baffle speakers would work in a really crappy (square) room. They do!

Figured when I was done with them my friend could have them. He also has a square room and tends to listen to music in compressed formats. The JB speakers are fairly forgiving in the mids and highs so it seemed like a perfect match for his environment.

But he had no interest in them. Doesn't want a system.

I'm not surprised he doesn't want to go whole hog into fancy schmancy audio but am really flustered that he doesn't want a quick, cheap, great sounding system given how much he enjoys music.
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60690 is a reply to message #60689] Thu, 27 August 2009 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

That's a weird deal, but I know lots of musicians like that. Never understood it really, but I think to them it's more about the content than about the quality, in a manner of speaking. They sort of hear through the media, if you know what I mean. They can listen through a distorted amp and buzzing speaker and get just as much as they would through a better system.

I think most people are more quality sensitive than that. If they hear good sound, they can easily identify it as being better, and they prefer it. But if they never get a chance to hear really good quality sound systems, they don't know what they're missing. And then there's the money factor too, maybe more a bang-for-the-buck metric.

I think lots of people would rather listen to their favorite music through a $500 to $1000 system like Fred is talking about, or the one you put together for your friend, than they would listen to an iPod or Best Buy micro-satellite system. The quality difference is striking, noticed immediately. Move up to a $5000 to $10,000 system, and I think most would prefer that to the $1K system. The quality difference is still pretty apparent, you can hear the clarity difference right away (if the components chosen are truly higher quality, of course). Some people will balk at the price tag though, and may be quite happy with the less expensive system. On to the $10K+ systems, you'll really lose a lot of people on the price, and especially since the sound quality improvement, while there, isn't as noticeable. The most expensive systems look expensive, but you reach a point of diminishing returns regarding sound quality, so not as many people buy them.

I guess it's like anything else, really. Same deal with cars. Most are in small, economical or midsize, mid-price cars. Fewer people drive expensive cars, even though most are clearly better in terms of performance or comfort or both. And then, some people don't even want to own a car. It isn't always economic either, some people just rather not drive, prefering public transportation or cabs. That's another thing I never figured out, 'cause I love to drive. But people from other cultures don't drive as much, so when they're here, they'd rather not drive even if they can afford a car. Different strokes for different folks.

Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60691 is a reply to message #60690] Thu, 27 August 2009 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shane is currently offline  Shane
Messages: 1117
Registered: May 2009
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Being a musician and someone who appreciates good quality sound (I know, I'm unusual), I guess I'll throw a few comments in the hat from a guitarists point of view. These are only my opinions as an electric guitarist and not everyone thinks as I do.

Most musicians I know like a good sound, but their perception of good sound in a live setting is different from an audiophile as Wayne said. They want that good sound an audiophile likes in the final mix most of the time, but rarely get it. I look for "tone", not necessarily balanced sound across the board. We fiddle with all the tone controls depending on the songs we like to play. A big, chunky low end for metal--with slightly scooped mids--and a ripping high end with lots of presence. A smooth low end, with more mid, and a rolled off treble for a lot of blues (ala Clapton or Eric Johnson). We change the sound with a multitude of effects after all that a lot of times because we can and it adds to the total viceral effect of the song. Imagine AC/DC played through a straight clean channel with every control set down the middle--I've done it and it bites! Each instrument in the band is done in some fashion like this. Even acoustic players do this to some degree, although they rely on the guitar itself to produce the "tone" they're looking for. In the end an engineer balances all these to make a nice homogenous sound, well some do anyway--then they compress the hell out of it.
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60776 is a reply to message #60691] Sun, 06 September 2009 08:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shane is currently offline  Shane
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
As a continuation of attracting people, especially younger people, to better sounding audio--how about we as a group research some music that is recorded well that the younger generation may like? You're not going to convert many people in their late 20's -early 30's by playing Mozart or Miles Davis or even Diana Krall. I am turning 40 and really just began appreciating other types of music other than rock/metal/pop in the last several years. I've heard it most of my life, but considered it either boring and lifeless, or just plain confusing. Don't get me wrong as I've always liked live classical performances where you could see the action as well as hear the music, but a recording of it left me sleeping--which is what it will do to most younger people. Although my 11 year old daughter really likes the psuedo classical Mike Oldfield Music of the Spheres. My kids are different I guess because they are exposed to many types of music. I bought the Beatles White Album the other day and she is digging that too. If only I could get my hands on one of the new mono boxed sets Sad

Anyway, if you know some younger people you might ask them what they listen to and try to find some good recordings of their type of music. That way when they come into an exhibitors room they can hear the difference. They're are some good recordings of rock/metal and popular music out there. I've heard some high end systems do metal quite well. In fact I think this type of music really show what a speaker system can do. There is more going on in the band than most people realize.

What ya'll think?
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60777 is a reply to message #60776] Sun, 06 September 2009 09:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18793
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

If you remember, there is all sorts of good music on half-speed mastered vinyl. Some rock, some jazz, some of all sorts. Now I realize that era ended in the late eighties, but there is still some music the kids will identify with. I'll bet we can find some audiophile vinyl of newer music too.
Re: Attracting Non-Audiophiles To High End Audio [message #60780 is a reply to message #60777] Sun, 06 September 2009 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Shane is currently offline  Shane
Messages: 1117
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (3rd Degree)
Vinyl would probably be the best bet for the best sound, CD's are out there, but you definitely have to research and be selective. I just know that I have employees at work that shrug off what most consider "audiophile" music when I have it playing on my computer. Sound at that point isn't the issue, it's definitely the material.
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