Home » xyzzy » Dungeon » legalities of reverse engineering
legalities of reverse engineering [message #57834] Tue, 10 January 2006 20:55 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
This is a website article dealing specifically with the topic of reverse engineering and it's legal responsibilities.

Re: legalities of reverse engineering [message #57835 is a reply to message #57834] Wed, 11 January 2006 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
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Good article, thanks. Glad you posted it here.


Re: legalities of reverse engineering [message #57836 is a reply to message #57835] Wed, 11 January 2006 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Yes. Good to get a dis-interested third party view.

Nice find.... [message #57837 is a reply to message #57834] Wed, 11 January 2006 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PakProtector is currently offline  PakProtector
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some nice parts:
"the competitive reality of reverse engineering may act as a spur to the inventor, creating an incentive to develop inventions that meet the rigorous requirements of patentability."

and this one:
the first sale doctrine in patent law, which allows a purchaser of a product on the open market to use it and even take it apart

and this one:
Since there is no time limitation on its enforceability, trade secrets can potentially provide eternal protection for software. Trade secrets terminate and become public domain information if they are publicly disclosed for any reason, however, including the widespread publication of the information on the Internet. Reverse engineering and independent discovery of the technical information within a product s are considered legally viable means of ending another's trade secret, provided that the product is obtained lawfully.


Seems pretty straight forward to me. Always good to see that I have indeed paid for good advice.
cheers,
Douglas



Re: Nice find.... [message #57838 is a reply to message #57837] Wed, 11 January 2006 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Good to see the legal reasoning inprint. And that supposedly is a pretty prominent law firm.

Re: legalities of reverse engineering [message #57839 is a reply to message #57834] Wed, 11 January 2006 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
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I hate to see it so easy for people to pick apart other peoples hard work, and it gets upheld by courts.
Absolutely reverse engineering will spin off fresh ideas for new and better things. So will just taking a look at something if your a good engineering designer. Personally, I feel for the most part things are reverse engineered for the simple fact to get knocked off, copied and insignificantly changed just ever so slightly so that they can skate by the law and make profits on other peoples good ideas. Free enterprise? I suppose it is. Maybe there's a lot of complainers out there but there's a LOT more good products being made by people and factories having no morels or conscience. Is standing behind the law, really all that high and mighty?

Re: legalities of reverse engineering [message #57840 is a reply to message #57839] Thu, 12 January 2006 05:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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I never engineered nothing unless you count my soap-box derby car in cub scouts. But I don't believe that is exactly what they are saying in these websites. It can be looked at another way; which is by changing the requirements ever so slightly; someone can freeze up a design in perpetuity. The point these people make is that it has been studied and proven that most restrictive covenents stifle creativity while producing very little for the designer. Lon's point that the famaily of Stan Getz can buy up his copyrighted tunes and hold them in escrow forever by renewing the copyright and thereby you will never hear the works; which were clearly meant to be available by the wishes of the composer.

Re: legalities of reverse engineering [message #57841 is a reply to message #57840] Thu, 12 January 2006 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
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Although not fair to people who want access to copy write material, or the wishes of the original owner. Is it not the right for the person's' who now own the copy write to do as they wish? some may be handed down and other have been purchased. I see it as the copy write and privilege of the material is at the discretion of the owner.

Patents are good for , say 17 years? What incentive is it for people to spend time and money to come up with a widget that someone down the road or a 3rd world country is going to knock off and sell it out from under the designer?

I make horns. I didn’t copy Edgar, Brooks or Tad since the design didn’t appeal to me. I liked a lot of things about the Jbl horns and the Altec horns. So I took a look at those and didn’t like the way the driver could mount to a wood horn. So I came up with the whole aluminum throat concept. I never liked the paper seal on horns, so I thought I would use the O-ring. Wayne ran some numbers in the Horn-Response program for me to come up with the best throat dimensions. So my horns are different from the others and I sleep at night because I'm not making a knock off. I cant get upset other wood horns that might be made, that's just silly. I think it would be a little disgusting to see wood horns with a metal throat in a similar arrangement. Why copy my stuff? people should come up with their own concept. But when a person could say this horn is a two piece build and a martinelli horn is a 4 piece build, everything else is pretty close, then a court upholds this kind of practice. Doesn’t that move the needle on your bulshit meter?


Re: legalities of reverse engineering [message #57842 is a reply to message #57841] Thu, 12 January 2006 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Wheew; you don't take in too much territory do you Bill?
The thing about copyright is this; at what point does a persons right to control a design remove anothers right to use it?
I am not a pro at this; all I did was ponder the possibilities and come down on a side I thought was the most honorable. I thought what if a guy designs a new boiler nozzle that can shoot such a fine mist that it can save the homeowner thousands of dollars over the lifetime of his home. Now say that nozzle is patented by a guy who claims he designed it. Fifty other guys had the same idea around the same time but now this guy owns the rights. Maybe he doesn't want to produce this; just lease it out. And maybe those lease rates are too high. Should one of the other fifty guys who thought of this design and who is willing to offer all of the cash strapped homeowners a fair price for this nozzle be shut down? Should this guy have the right to prevent people who need that savings from realising them out of greed?
I say no.
Thats how I see it.
Is it fair to the guy with the patent? About as fair as it would be if he was able to stop the access to that design for everyone else. So I come down on the side of restricted access; you can't prevent a design from being produced out of a desire to be usurious. Would that stop research and developement? Well; the studies say no.
I can speak to art and music; the music will be made regardless of any scheme to prevent access and the easier it is to acquire the music the more and better music seems to be made.
Grey area; like the one-handed economist; on the other hand....


Re: legalities of reverse engineering [message #57843 is a reply to message #57842] Thu, 12 January 2006 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
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Well John, I'm no pro and just have my opinions. If a person or company has the right to control something. Is it not theirs. If something is controllable or you have rights to it. It seems to me that there is a form of ownership. For instance. You own a TV, It sits in your living room. Does that mean less fortunate children should be allowed to sit in your house, or take and use your TV so they can watch PBS and educate themselves, have a better life and someday because they watched the 'learning channel' have become a Nobel prize winner?
All pretty far fetched right? but when it's 'your stuff' being pilfered you have a different opinion.

The drug companies seem to do a damn fine job of keeping their shit 'theirs' until the patent runs out.

So, if some guys invents a super atomizing annular discharge nozzle to save the free world from its evils of energy use. It would sure be nice for everyone to get to use it ASAP. worse case he patents the idea. charges an arm and a leg for this planet saving device until the patent expires in 17 years. Then, everyone can buy the generic Nozzle; wait, no I'm back on heart pills and pharmaceuticals again.

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