you wrote;

:::Does a guy have any rights to reverse engineer a part that he will not get any other way and that he requires to rebuild his existing unit?:::

First... he should explore and exhaust (at a minimum) all legitimate avenues to satisfying his needs. In the case of the transformers... there are a whole host of companies out there who would be happy to design and build a transformer to your requirements.

the other thing to remember and take into consideration in our specific case vis-a-vis doug's piracy of our design... is that we do build this transformer and actually have coil stock on it. So it is not like it is forlorn to some ole' dusty "archival" bin. It's a real live part and the design does belong to us.

mike

even in the case of unobtanium....

context is important...

for example, suppose that Bruce Edgar had a flagship speaker system that took so much time to biuld each set that realistically he had to cap the number of orders that he could accept every year.

Suppose you really wanted those speakers... but you were the 13th in line and only the first twelve could be accomadated.

Since you tried to buy from Bruce but couldn't... does this give you a licence to copy and reverse engineer his design? Now suppose further, that you were an active participant on a speaker forum on the internet... and you knew that demand for the speaker was high and that several other folks on the board might be interested.

Would it be kosher to take the "reverse engineering" that you acquired
(say by studying and copying a lucky friend who did have a pair of these same speakers) and then go on the board and offer Edgar copies of his flagship model produced by an outside unauthorized firm?

the music example is a bit trickier... but not a close analogy to what 's been going on here.

None-the-less... it's a fascinating example. Which has many facets or sides to consider. Here are some thoughts that quickly came to mind...

1) if everybody hotrods their copy (gets it feebie on-line) then that will surely decrease demand for an item that may already have a very limited market potential. So it becomes a self-fulfilling _________ (fill in the blank).

2) is it possible to get LP's, cassettes, reel to reel tapes, or any other previously issued copy of the song or album that interests you?

3) my other test... though it is quite imperfect in some respects.... does someone or some company depend on it economically? Is it economically active?

If the answer is yes... then my first reaction is to honor their ownership interests in whatever it is that we are talking about.... I'd sooner do without it than to pirate their property or rip them off.

In the case... say were the music piece has not had any economic activity for say decades.... that's were I am so less certain myself of what is the right thing to do or not to do.

But the mere absence or unavailability of a design or a product (say Mr. Edgar withdraws his flagship speaker product) still does not trump the fact that he was the designer of that flagship speaker and that he has a right to control (or should have) to control his own property and his own designs.

What if... this is an offshoot... someone had an old Austin Healey bug eye sprite sitting in their backyard. That they had bought the car some years ago... and left it unprotected outside in the elements... suppose also that there was no legal (state issued) title for the car... if I am a AH enthusiast would this give me the right to pirate the car from his back yard to save it... could I argue that I would restore and preserve the car.... thus my interests trump the owners property rights?

some of these are tougher cases... like the music example you gave... but many of these cases really seem to be basic ethics... where we all know right from wrong. Or should.

msl

It cannot be pirated. Not by me or anybody else.

I will further point out that you seem to be motivated entirely by personal and not lawful reasons. If it were the latter, there are a few others who advertise the ability to wind Peerless designs for you to pursue and slander( or is it defame? ). Yet you do not....

Your continued repetition of the 'I own that design' line is not going to make it so.

I am not Andre Jute, and I am not going to cease my plans for production of the modified public domain design. If you decide to attack me as thououghly as you did Mr. Jute, I will be able to protect myself adequately.

Please stop throwing a tantrum at me for rubbing your nose in the fact that your archive of designs is only as protected as the paper it is written on. The information contained in them is open for legal acquisition and use by anyone who knows where to look. Sorry about that, but it is not me just making up the rules.
cheers,
Douglas

The topic you seem so interested in is my discovering the means to replicate a Peerless design you claim to own the rights to. You own no such right. The right does not exist, it is long since entered the public domain. The design is accessable by any person wishing to discover it.

Your attempt to cloud the water and raise a smoke screen do nothing to further your claim of ownership to *ANYTHING*. In this clearly, you are not in a position to dictate any terms or conditions.

I am glad you choose to discuss and state your position in public.
cheers,
Douglas

:::You do not have any exclusive rights to the design in question. It is in public domain.:::

No it is not in the public domain. We have never put this design in the public domain.

And as I recall we were the sole purchasers of the Peerless archives, designs, rights to the designs, the goodwill of the company as well as the trademark and brand name.

Are all of Wayne's speaker designs in the public domain if you choose to pirate them as well?

Is it ok to take one of Jack's popular SE output tranney designs and hotrod it (pirate it) and count that as a "public domain good"?

I guess no products are safe around you if all that is required is an absence of a patent and an eagerness on your part to deprive someone of full and exclusive use of their property.

Like I said if you ever buy something (designs) of value or create something of value... you will probably hope and pray that not too many other folks will practice your current set of ethics.

And... this forum does not need to adopt the particular code of ethics that you are espousing.

MSL

:::They also have nothing to do with the honourable Mr. Parham, so do please leave him out of this.:::

sure it does. If you can reverse engineer and copy my designs why couldn't you do the same with Mr. Parham's designs?

Please explain the material differences btwn our cases?

or is the only difference that you have not yet targeted mr. Parham for pirating of his designs?

Doug further states;

:::...it is long since entered the public domain.:::

exactly when (what date) did the Peerless designs enter the "public domain"? Was it a willing gift to the public by the owner of Peerless at that time? Did they announce that they had abandoned their interests in their own designs?

Doug writes further that;

:::The design is accessable by any person wishing to discover it.:::

like I said... so, as an example, Wayne's speaker designs are fair game for you or anyone else to reverse engineer and copy and offer for sale... in direct competition to Mr. Parham so long as he does not have patent protection?

I guess any product with a lid that not welded securely in place is fair game.

Further... doc has called me several times while trying to repair a broken down transformer to get the right information. And this after a complete disassembly... and by a guy who has many decades experience... so "reverse engineering" and "teardowns" are not as foolproof and certain as you have proposed. Witness the mistakes that you've already made in your teardown.

And if I choose to give Dennis the details he needs... guess what... that's my right as the owner of the designs.

And if I choose not to give you the details of a design that you want me to... that's my right as well. Doesn't give you the moral authority to pirate my designs does it?

msl

you stated:

"It cannot be pirated. Not by me or anybody else."

Sure it can. And your actions are textbook examples of piracy.

To wit; I looked up the definition of "piracy" and found;

*******************************************************************

an unauthorized appropiation and reproduction of another's production, invention, or conception

********************************************************************

it's exactly the right word to describe your behaviour.

msl

:::If you want to hear my thoughts I would be glad to post them here; I am pretty sure at this point anything I say will be lost in the mix here.:::

No. Go ahead. So far the discourse has been gentlemanly and civil.
Youself, wayne, colin I have enjoyed discoursing with. But... not intercourse... so don't get any wrong ideas.

:::The music thing; of course the recordings are archived somewhere but nowhere I can get them. Why should I be deprived of hearing a dead persons work? Because some recording company is hoarding the copies in case of some future demand? As an investment?:::

This is a tough case. again... and not to beat a dead horse... but is there any possibility of getting this material second hand in the form of an LP, cassette, reel to reel tape, etc.... just asking this from a practical point of view...

And I understand human emotions... all of us get pissed off if we suspect someone is hoarding some product or good that we need or desire... we can subjectively feel "victimized" by a recalcitrant company, firm or individual who might have control over that good or service that we desire or actually need.

And, damn, if I have a handy answer...

:::I am probably the wrong guy to answer this because I resent that whole concept. But I respect yours and anyone elses right to own their own property.:::

Boy... I almost want to tell ya to just do it... but then I would be accused of inconsistency...

and there is a part of me that sez... and I've done stuff already that I knew was wrong... but did it anyway. but a part of me does say... take the high road whenever possible. Consult your own conciensce...
sometimes we even do something when our conciensce tells us not to...

and then I wonder... have I done everything I can to do this the right way?

again... no judgements here on the music case... and it is different than our biggie case being discussed....

I wish I knew even for myself... a settled answer.

:::I just hope at this point you two find some common ground.:::

Not to seem hard butt.. but... I cannot see any common ground here as regards doug... pirating my products just must stop.

I've tried to be constructive and offer (just like you probably wish someone could offer a good alternative for the early musical recordings) an alternative to piracy.

Namely... that there are public domain designs that would or could work very well in the merlin project. These alternatives do no pirate anyone's design and property interests.

Plus... unlike your case there are many legitimate transformer houses who could offer a suitable design for the Merlin amp project.

MSL