Home » xyzzy » Dungeon » 2 B A Drug Addict in NO
Re: Drug addicts anyplace have problems! [message #56851 is a reply to message #56848] Mon, 05 September 2005 06:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Wheew; thanks Bill.

Re: 2 B A Drug Addict in NO [message #56852 is a reply to message #56840] Mon, 05 September 2005 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
Where are you speaking of? Also the Guard is National. Any President can mobilise the gaurd; look at Iraq.
I see after perusing the papers Sunday that the spin is desperately revolving around placing blame on the locals. I think; and this is only my opinion, that the concept that Bush and company are so completely inept and so fixed on getting their agenda across in congress is frightening to Americans on so many levels that even supposedly sober-minded individuals are willing to allow some shifting of responsibility if only so that we don't look so pathetic around the globe.
Thinking you have a leader who has no concern for his people and is essentially a puppet for the monied interests is very unsettling to many folks. What happens when the next disater strikes; it could be you.

Re: You are correct [message #56853 is a reply to message #56846] Mon, 05 September 2005 06:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
You; insensitive? Naah!
One sec; I have to put my crystals back in my pyramid.

Re: This just about sums it up [message #56854 is a reply to message #56847] Mon, 05 September 2005 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
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Illuminati (13th Degree)
Bush declared a state of emergency on Saturday but so what? He offered no help or support and promptly left to give a speech propping up his losing effort in Iraq.

Re: 2 B A Drug Addict in NO [message #56857 is a reply to message #56852] Mon, 05 September 2005 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cheetah is currently offline  cheetah
Messages: 70
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
Government is inept at all levels. When this is over and people begin to take the aftermath and response apart and analyse them; not Bush, not Blanco, not Nagin. All levels of government failed here. That has been my point all along. I don't see pointing a finger at any one individual and saying why didn't you do more? What took so long?

And what of the people who refused to go? Yes there were some who could not. Those who were/are sick, infirmed, the old and feeble, the young who are wards of the state, the list goes on. I saw yesterday that over 230,000 had been evacuated from NO. And only God knows how many more they will find, when they start going door to door. You simply can't make a case that this many people simply couldn't find a way out.

No, a very large number a people chose to stay: the reasons are varied and their own: and ride this one out. They gamble with their lives and lost. My heart breaks because of the conditions these people had to endure. But the fault is their own.

I guess what I am saying is this. We, you, me, all of us are damn idiots if we are depending on the government to take care of us. Ultimately I am responsible for my self. Not the mayor. Not the governor. Not the president. ME! If it had been my family, and we had the advanced notice of what was coming, you can bet that I would have gotten them us out. Some way some how. Even if I had to walk. I would have gotten my brood out.

Those who could not help them selves, Yes; we as a society have a responsiblitiy to help. We didn't. Our social services failed. Government failed. We all failed to make preparation for what we all knew was coming, eventually.

Bottom line. If I allow government to have the responsibility for my welfare and safe keeping, then there is much personal freedom I must also relinquish. No one can be saddled with responsibility without the authority to back it up. Be it government or private individuals. Since government is enept, as the response to Katrina so vividly illustrates, I will not depend on them for the well being of mine. I will look after them. But, I also need to get government out of my life, to allow me to do the things I need to do, to prepare.

The debate in this country needs to change. We are missing the point as we all discuss how and why the government response failed. The debate should be who is more able to protect me and mine when disaster comes. Government, all levels? Hardly!

Joe

Re: 2 B A Drug Addict in NO [message #56858 is a reply to message #56857] Mon, 05 September 2005 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Harry Truman said it best about the presidency;
The Buck Stops Here.
A leader is supposed to lead; not tell the citizens to do it themselves. Thats silly.

Re: 2 B A Drug Addict in NO [message #56864 is a reply to message #56858] Tue, 06 September 2005 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
akhilesh is currently offline  akhilesh
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Illuminati (3rd Degree)
I like to think of politicians as people who serve, not people who lead. Do you really consider poiliticans we see on TV everyday (of either party) to be leadership material?
I agree, we are all responsible for our own destinies, at least I believe I am.
-akhilesh

Re: 2 B A Drug Addict in NO [message #56865 is a reply to message #56864] Tue, 06 September 2005 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
So; AK what is the definition of a leader? Do they not exist anymore? Was Abraham Lincoln a server or a leader? George Washington?
How about Mohandus Ghandi?
I got it; a leader is one who takes orders??

Where I grew up there were guys you knew were men. They were the guys you wanted around you if something went wrong or needed doing. They had some characteristics in common with each other. They tended to be capable; quick thinking and resourcefull. And when something went wrong..they accepted the responsibility and corrected the situation.

Then there were guys known around to be weasels. They were always bragging about their supposed accomplishments that were non-existant; you could not trust their word to be true or accurate; they never finished what they started or they screwed up the things they did do then tried to blame it on someone else. And when the shit hit the fan they either disappeared or provided excuses instead of help.

Re: 2 B A Drug Addict in NO [message #56867 is a reply to message #56864] Wed, 07 September 2005 03:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18789
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I see that as an idealistic position, and I agree. The best organizations I know of treat their office positions as trusted servants, and they encourage rotation of position. There's a certain learning curve for a new person in a position, then a period where they are comfortable and most effective, then a burnout period. By rotating the position, the organization is made stronger because more people become more involved. It also protects the organization from institutionalized leadership, which is almost always a power grab. I don't know if it would work on a national level though. Seems to work best on a smaller local level, where everyone knows everyone else.

One thing is certain. No matter how much you try to institutionalize safety, it's still just layers and layers of abstraction over a fundamental level of uncertainty. What I mean is, you can build social systems with insurance against catastrophe, but you cannot ensure safety. You can do a lot to help things, and you can think ahead. But you cannot ensure a person's safety, health or prosperity. Not that I think we should stop trying to do the best we can, but I think it is important to do a reality check.

The worst thing I see out of the last 50 years or so is people have become so accustomed to cradle-to-grave security that they believe they can actually demand it. We tend to forget that social systems are there to protect society, not individuals. Each individual has to protect himself, and one forgets this at his own peril.

I'm not saying I think everyone should fend for themselves, and forget those that can't. Not at all. But I am reminding everyone of this simple fact. The police that catch the robber isn't there to protect your stuff, in fact, he could care less. The police are there to protect society by acting as a deterrent, to frighten bad guys into acting like good guys. He is also a sometimes a tax collector of sorts, bringing in revenues for the city, state or federal agency he works for. Same is true of the military, National Guard, etc. They aren't there to protect anyone. They are there to protect everyone.

So if you are under attack, hurt, hungry or thirsty, by all means, do the best you can. Don't wait for the cops or the National Guard because they might not help you. That's not their job. Weird, I know, very frustrating. But just have your house burgled or your car stolen and you'll see what I mean. Be attacked and mugged. See what happens if your kids are kidnapped. Or have a natural disaster destroy your life. That's when I think it's time for us to go above and beyond the system, to reach out as individuals to other individuals. Because the system isn't setup to help individuals, and those that think otherwise become hopelessly frustrated.


Re: 2 B A Drug Addict in NO [message #56870 is a reply to message #56867] Wed, 07 September 2005 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
If you are hungary and thirsty you better not wait for the national guard or police under this administration because as we saw they ain't coming. But then if you do what you must to survive without regard for law and order then you have anarchy.
I find the concept that the government we elect to ensure that these functions are provided has no responsibility to us as citizens to be so unacceptable that truth is I can't take that position seriously. Maybe thats the problem; I can't tell if you are serious or pulling my leg here.
Then you say the police are not here to keep the peace but they are here to control the population sounds like a fascist state to me.
If you are under attack be sure to know the law before you retaliate because you could end up in jail yourself. We have those laws and police to prevent people from taking the law into their own hands and the penalties for doing so are stiff.
The best policing in this country has been studied for years. Under Bratton; New York became the safest large city in America during the Guilliani years. His theories also were proven in Boston. His basic fundamental position? Each and every officer is responsible for every individual on his beat. It's called quality of life policing and it works. Maybe thats something you should look into; because your theories are so discredited that they sound archaic.
Cradle-to grave security? Not when you see half the country without health insurance. What Social Security? Study the conditions of America that brought the concept of SS into being. The great depression and how many thousands of people died of lack of nutrition medical care safe work envirenment. SS works and works well unless you think the very rich should get richer.
Have you discussed with survivors what conditions were like during the great depression? You certainly would not be working because the engineering trades that existed at the time were decimated by the economy; and there weren't many people buying audio with their life savings.
You think it can't ever happen again? The classic mistake throughout history because it damn sure does repeat itself.
I see a different America than you do; most of the folks I know work two jobs and their wives work. Their kids come home and take care of themselves because there isn't anyone home. They go to the HIP center for medical treatment because most of the jobs now do not pay for health coverage.
Cradle-to grave security? Where, the two percent of our fellow citizens that collect welfare?
Say; who paid for your education anyway; did you get any student loans? Grants? maybe. Small business loans or tax abatement?
You are obviously a hard working guy no doubt; but try putting in those hours with four kids.
My point; it doesn't add up for a decent guy like yourself to have these positions that are miserly and accepting of Governmental incompetence. You work hard; why should they get a pass? They have a job to do; do the damn job and stop looking for excuses.
I never heard you make an excuse for yourself; why make it for them?
I have a serious dis-connect with your statements here because I know what kind of guy you are and this position that the government owes nothing to it's citizens and police should not protect the individual and people should do whatever they see fit to survive; it doesn't gibe with what I know of you.

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