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Hmm? [message #56239] Fri, 13 May 2005 19:15 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Any chance the concept that just maybe they didn't want us to liberate their oil could be a possibility?
We need to ressurect the old Country Joe and The Fish song;
"Well come on all you big strong men"
"Uncle Sam needs A Helping Hand"
"Got Himself in A Terrible Jam"
"Way down yonder Afghanistan."

"And it's One..Two Three"
"What are We Fightin' For"
"Don't Ask Me I don't Give A Damn"
"Next Stop Afghanistan".
"And It's Five Six Seven Open Up The Pearly Gates"
"Well we Ain't Got Time To Wonder Why,"
"Woopee Were All Gonna Die."

Maybe [message #56240 is a reply to message #56239] Sun, 15 May 2005 04:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wunhuanglo is currently offline  wunhuanglo
Messages: 912
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
good read on the subject

Re: Maybe [message #56241 is a reply to message #56240] Sun, 15 May 2005 07:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks Charley; It's food for thought but I must point out the powerfull feeling of Deja-Vue'. Anyone who lived through Vietnam has read similar soul searching journalistic self-examinations.
The rule seems to be the less noble the cause the tighter the control of information and propoganda.
The article exposes the reporters failure of trust but of course bends over backward to explain away the conduct as neccessary and vital to our efforts to win hearts and minds. This schism is endemic within the press; do I try to do my job and report what I see; or does that make me a turncoat; or am I personally in danger for expressing my views?
Is the press the noble institution of a free society; or a lackey to the ruling party and their need to validate their actions. He does what they all seem to be doing now; basically excuses this behaviour while expressing his fears of the people who we invest with the job of protecting us. Yes; the soldiers are brave and make great sacrifices for this cause; and of course we all are gratefull for their service in battle with our enemies.
But why are these people our enemy? Do we need an indepth expose' using confidential sources to explain this?
If we invade their country; kill their friends; neighbors and family, whether inadvertantly or not; they are still dead.
Do we expect them to welcome us as liberators when it is plain as day why we went into their country to wage war?
The fact that this journalist is incredulous that our own administrators are not more hospitable is the real story; along with our collective naivete' concerning the people who are fighting. I don't care how many Syrians cross the border; you cannot wage a guerrilla war on that level without the cooperation of the populace. That is the lesson we learned in Vietnam.
We are blinded as a people to the reality that no one see's us as the great liberators of mankind.
They just see a bunch of wealthy guys looking for oil.

Re: Maybe [message #56242 is a reply to message #56241] Sun, 15 May 2005 07:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I don't know anyone from Iraq, but I do know people from the former Yugoslavia. In fact, I know people from both sides. Two of them are pretty regular participants here. I can tell you for sure that what you heard here was complete bullshit.

I don't know about political motivations or journalistic intentions, and to tell the truth, I tend to mistrust them both. But I can tell you for sure that there was ugliness on both sides of the Yugoslavian issue, and there were also nice people on both sides. It was not one sided as that crazy Madeline Albright said. I sat and watched things unfold and when I saw her on television night after night, I remember thinking I had never seen a major politician lie so much since Nixon's cover up.

So I tend to assume what I hear through journalists and politicians is skewed and unreliable, often times patently false. I'm a flag waving American, our fellow citizens are our neighbors. But propoganda here is pretty strong, as is the desire to want to conform. If you aren't in one of two political parties, you'll throw your vote away, and that's all the voice most people have. Kinda sad that things have become so polarized.


Re: Maybe [message #56243 is a reply to message #56241] Sun, 15 May 2005 07:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wunhuanglo is currently offline  wunhuanglo
Messages: 912
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
I agree with you completely - but I didn't get the same thing from the article you did. What I read was the first print admission that they're doing exactly the same thing we in the US would do under similar circumstances.

I've said it a hundred times over the past couple of years - I despise George Bush, his supporters and his policies. But if Sadaam showed up here to get rid of Bush for us? He's gonna' take a cap in the ass, to use the current vernacular.


Speaking of polarized... [message #56244 is a reply to message #56242] Sun, 15 May 2005 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wunhuanglo is currently offline  wunhuanglo
Messages: 912
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)
Why the U.S. is doomed to the same fate as Imperial Rome:

MSNBC Live Vote

Should public schools teach students about counterarguments to the theory of evolution? * 69455 responses

Yes;42% many Americans doubt evolution, and education should reflect widespread beliefs.

Re: Speaking of polarized... [message #56246 is a reply to message #56244] Sun, 15 May 2005 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
I know what you meant on the thread Charley; I think the same; that is what I tried to understand, why many of the American people think we are heroes for invading someone elses country and confused as to why they are resisting instead of welcoming. Or the anger resulting from 9/11 fused this need to lash out that was harnessed by the big guys to accomplish their own aims.
As for teaching Intelligent Design; you have to make the sacrifice and move your kids where the schools are not run by religous fanatics. Let them wallow in their ignorance. This is the best argument for a centrally controlled educational system there is.
Wayne; trying to make sense of events that as you say are very obviously skewed in their reporting is not possible. What I think we can do is read between the lines. Most spectators take the obvious bias into account. At least I do. Then I wait and watch to see what the Party Line is/Where the Money is Coming From/ Who Responds and How the official response deals with the event. Then I make a connection from each aspect of the reporting and look to see who gets the benefit.
If you remmember the old cold-war press and their "Kremlin Watching" posts from the U.S.S.R. They detected subtle clues by the behaviour of the top guys then built up a story based upon past practice. And they were usually proved right.
Then reach back to your own experience. Thoreau once said,"Do not make too much of the details of history. It is simpler than you think."
I think I have that quote right.
Living through Vietnam; the parrallels are amazing. Some of the despatches from Iraq could be substituted with Vietnam and pasted onto the current scene without any change; and they would be the same.
Why do I have this burning need to vent? I have children. They need education/health care/and a reasonable share of the good life we worked for. They don't need to be fighting to protect the wealthy and their interests.
You know it can't be that the information available to us is totally worthless. It may not be 100% accurate, but why would we be expected to be spoonfed this priveledged info without having to do some speculating/guessing/and pondering; because the truth is I am not sure those who know actually know as much as we think. At some point they too must wing it.
Nice discussion for a quiet Sunday Guys.

Re: Maybe [message #56248 is a reply to message #56242] Sun, 15 May 2005 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)

What did you expect - the political and armed fights in & about former Yugoslavia continued before and through WW1, then WW2, then war(s) in the 90`s... On one side Serbian politics/domination, and on the other side fight for independent states, the most in Croatia. BUT, all through the games and interests of big countries...
Lies, interests, wars, crimes, spies, politics, oficial and unoficial history...
My grandpa was born in Austria/Hungary, lived in two Yugoslavias and died in Croatia, finally. He was in a concetracion-camp AFTER WW2, you can`t find it in the history books, and my wife`s grandpa was killed AFTER WW2. And many others.
My best friend was wounded three times, and today he read in the newspapers "what went on" only 10 years ago, and more or less - lies & politics, depends who pays/controls the media - interests.
"Special war" went on, not with arms, but through the (destroyed) economics, politics, criminal and lies/propaganda, again.
But, it`s a beautiful country and people are still good, thank God. Problems and history aside, I ignore all of this, think about tube amps, and hiking through the forests with my family, when I find some time:-)
But, from a little walk a few weeks ago - one picture...ooppsss...
But, not to worry, that`s nothing at all - my other friend`s job is cleaning the mine-fields, I do not want to write how small his sallary is, but he is happy - he just got his forth child, and somehow - life goes on. Evil has some power, but not all at all, and all of this... Enough for today...

Re: Maybe [message #56251 is a reply to message #56248] Sun, 15 May 2005 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

I know, Damir, I know. I don't know if you saw what was on American television in the 1990's, but it was COMPLETE bullshit. If you don't know, you don't want to.


I know :-) [message #56255 is a reply to message #56251] Mon, 16 May 2005 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Damir is currently offline  Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (2nd Degree)

...but it`s a lunch break, and everything`s under control. We have lot to do and no time for politics (especially in public forum)...

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