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Oasis of sense [message #55846] Wed, 21 July 2004 09:37 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Mr. Barbour; Have re-read article from Issue 19 of VTV titled Why NOS tubes are better. Excellent explanation for what we have all been hearing. However the essay at the end of the article is somewhat confusing. In the paragraph where you begin;"Just as important is the suseptibility of your average NOS nerd....", I am wondering why that appears to me to contradict your basic contention that NOS tubes in fact are better sounding due to the reasons you illuminate in the article. I read on but the remaining ideas don't clarify. BTW does anyone really take Tellig seriously? I mean every piece he reviews can't be the best. Stereophile is a great catalog of equipment but except for the response graphs and industry news what is the point, even the music reviews are gratuitous.

My humble opinion; There are only a limited no. of individuals willing to take the incredible amount of time and effort to excell at this hobby and those individuals realise that there is a lifetime of learning involved; are not easily fooled; tend to know when the sound is good and vice-versa; to not slavishly cleave onto every new fad; and are careful with their money. So that is a difficult audience upon which to make a living and you have my sympathy as well as a sincere gratitude for your dedication. please do not allow a souring of opinion to infect your efforts.

Re: Oasis of sense [message #55847 is a reply to message #55846] Sat, 24 July 2004 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
metasonix is currently offline  metasonix
Messages: 103
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
>However the essay at the end of the article is somewhat confusing. In the paragraph where you begin;"Just as important is the suseptibility of your average NOS nerd....", I am wondering why that appears to me to contradict your basic contention that NOS tubes in fact are better sounding due to the reasons you illuminate in the article.

Because IMO too many guys go chasing after certain NOS because they were told to go after it, not because they can actually hear any difference...seen this happen in listening tests. And besides, those types are driving the supplies down and prices up by using up the things they are told to buy (again, not always the best for the job). In some circuits a cheap Sovtek works amazingly well. Most modern guitar amps were designed especially to work well with available new tubes, not NOS. But snobbery often takes over and denies it.

It's not consistent snobbery either. I've seen two "experts" argue about which EF86 is the best, almost to the point of violence. There have been endless wars on rec.audio.tubes and alt.guitar.amps started over which obscure hard-to-find 12AX7 one should pay inflated prices for....that's the worst part, when you have egomaniacs telling people what to buy. And disagreeing. Again, this is so much like the wine-tasting "business" that it's depressing to me. Or like the childish wars people get into over role-playing games.

>BTW does anyone really take Tellig seriously?

You'd be really surprised. He has a huge fan following. I have met otherwise reasonably intelligent, well-educated men who talk about Tellig the way some teenage girls talk about Justin Timberlake. And some of the stuff he raves about is just crap IMO. Again, lack of critical thinking is how this crap starts. We end up with $50,000 speakers that are awful sounding, being built up into big sellers. (And once-common WWII 6SN7s selling for $250, almost overnight.)


Re: Oasis of sense [message #55848 is a reply to message #55847] Sat, 24 July 2004 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Thanks for the reply but you have piqued my interest with your statement that most modern guitar amps are designed to work well with new tubes. How do they design specifically for a particular brand of tube? Please understand this is not a challenge; that is a fascinating concept. It sounds ridiculous when you look at it. In other hobbies(Cars, motorcycles, woodworking, etc.) you don't seem to see this level of intense desire to prove you have the lock on what is right but there is more of a communal effort to excell and share.

Also is it true you don't favor interstage transformer coupling? I may have that wrong, if so I apologise for the error. J.R.

I have in fact heard several very pricey speakers that I found to be sterile and lacking in musicality. To be frank I thought they sounded like crapola. At the risk of sounding looney the sound seems to me to be etched in glass, if that makes any sense.

I have read Tellig again after you mentioned him, correct me if I am wrong but I have read several essays written many yrs. ago by Herb Reichert. In those essays he uses several signature phrases such as Where he talks about speakers that have been around for 20 yrs. or more in mostly unchanged configuration. Tellig seems to have adopted some of those concepts and phrases. I f we go back to those old essays we can see much that is similar. I don't know; maybe it's me.J.R.

Re: Oasis of sense [message #55849 is a reply to message #55848] Sat, 24 July 2004 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
metasonix is currently offline  metasonix
Messages: 103
Registered: May 2009
Viscount
>correct me if I am wrong but I have read several essays written many yrs. ago by Herb Reichert. In those essays he uses several signature phrases such as Where he talks about speakers that have been around for 20 yrs. or more in mostly unchanged configuration. Tellig seems to have adopted some of those concepts and phrases.

Not surprised. "Sam" (not his real name) has been reading SOUND PRACTICES and LISTENER, and he's also been badgered repeatedly by the NYC triode mafia. So it's not surprising that he's starting to ape them. The NY audiophile scene is one of the most trend-obsessed I've ever seen. They might as well be writing for VOGUE or WWD.

>At the risk of sounding looney the sound seems to me to be etched in glass

That's quite typical of audiophile equipment. It's not unusual for such products to deliberately have uptilted HF response. Speakers and especially high-priced moving coil cartridges are notorious for this. It's deliberate--the makers know that their middle-aged male customers are suffering from high-frequency hearing loss, so they cater to them. One of the worst examples I EVER heard was the Hovland exhibit at the 1999 CES. Drove me out of the room. A year later, their setup sounded totally different. Guess someone complained.

>is it true you don't favor interstage transformer coupling?

Where'd you get that idea? If you can get good interstage transformers, they can work miracles, esp. in amps using low mu triodes.
Good luck finding good ones, bub. Without paying insulting prices for old ones, that is. Your best bet might be to talk Dennis Hoyer into making something for you--he's a treasure trove of otherwise-forgotten winding tricks.


Re: Oasis of sense [message #55850 is a reply to message #55849] Sun, 25 July 2004 04:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18786
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)
Harvey Rosenburg is another controversial and interesting personality. I just can't help feeling like he is sort of like the audiophile's version of Timothy Leary. Every time I read quotes attributed to him, it makes me think of the song "Legend of a Mind" from the Moody Blues.

  • Dr. Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg's "www.Meta-Gizmo.com"

  • Re: Oasis of sense [message #55851 is a reply to message #55848] Sun, 25 July 2004 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
    Messages: 4973
    Registered: May 2009
    Illuminati (13th Degree)
    I see upon re-reading my post it appears that I am saying that designing for specific brands of tubes is ridiculous. Thats not my intention to say that. The ridiculous part was meant to apply to your speaking up about those easily angered by differences of opinion. I understand well that scenario of two or more grown men red in the face over ... what??? Your point is well taken.

    I still would be interested to know what criteria would influence the change of a design from one brand of say el84's to another brand.

    Wayne mentions Rosenberg, he was mildly entertaining at times but his attempts at humor tend to wear thin quickly.

    I think now; upon remmembering carefully, that I might have assumed the interstage transformer statement due to an earlier post you made concerning Sakuma's designs and how weak they sounded. His schtick is all transformer coupling so I put two and two together. Bad idea.

    Where can we read up on your little portable amp? I used to carry an auto amp with a 110/12 volt converter and two minimus 7's as a portable system, it would be nice to have a portable tube unit for outdoors. J.R.(Thanks for the heads up on the interstage transformer winding guy) It would be nice to see some dialogue on that very subject.

    Re: Oasis of sense [message #55852 is a reply to message #55851] Sun, 25 July 2004 17:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
    metasonix is currently offline  metasonix
    Messages: 103
    Registered: May 2009
    Viscount
    >I still would be interested to know what criteria would influence the change of a design from one brand of say el84's to another brand.

    Because I have a lot of work to do, and this is a very complex subject (and I have no idea how much electronics education you have), I'd prefer not to go into a lot of detail about this.
    I can give you a few pointers: 1) modern tubes have more distortion than NOS (in general). So more feedback is helpful in making current tubes sound their best. It's usually not a big change. 2) More plate current produces better linearity. However, one then has to run lower voltage to keep dissipation in the rated area. This is necessary anyway because modern tubes usually don't have very hard vacuum or the best materials. 3) esp. in guitar amps, adjusting or adding EQ can SOMEWHAT compensate for the poorer cathode materials in modern tubes. This is a MASSIVE area of study, one that nobody will ever write a textbook about because guitar amp mfrs. are notoriously secretive about their "magic formulae". Competition in that business is VERY cutthroat.

    >Where can we read up on your little portable amp?

    Do you mean the Metasonix TM-4? Nowhere that I know of. No publication has ever reviewed it. Sales have been very low. If this keeps up I'm tempted to either change it completely or drop it.
    If you want to try it, I might be willing to discuss a temporary loan of the last one left in stock. You could always review it for some website, like enjoythemusic.com or 6moons.com. Email me. (synth@metasonix.com)

    Metasonix TM-4 [message #55853 is a reply to message #55852] Tue, 27 July 2004 03:09 Go to previous message
    Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
    Messages: 18786
    Registered: January 2001
    Illuminati (33rd Degree)
    Hi Eric,

    I'd like to know more about this amp. For the last month or two, I've been thinkin' that an amp of your design would be cool, and lo and behold, here it is. Seems like if people know about it, there would probably be a great deal of interest. With all the folks around here and their collective specialties, you have excellent resources available if you ned anything like chassis to round-out a kit and/or finished product. Seems like a neat deal, and I'd like to see it happen.

    Wayne

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