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At Last; the hardcore right-wing reactionary religiousos' are on the run. [message #54898] Sun, 18 December 2005 07:58 Go to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Hey; they're not Republicans and they are not Democrats. They don't speak for the majority or even a significant minority. They just speak the loudest. They yap like dogs on the right wing TV and Radio Networks because their message is geared for fanatics and simpletons who respond to quick and simple sound bites like Pavlov's subjects.
Lets hope real reporters and commentators begin to stand up and be counted in this coming year. I for one am tired of these radicals appropriating the citizens airspace. Especially that Australian whacko who owns Fox news and the replicants that appear on there.

I'll Take A Stab at Part of This One [message #54901 is a reply to message #54898] Mon, 19 December 2005 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
elektratig is currently offline  elektratig
Messages: 348
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
Mb,

I'm not sure who you're referring to in particular, but I gather that Fox News figures prominently in there somewhere. I'll address only one part of your post -- the complaint about "appropriating the citizens airspace."

What you really seem to be contending is that television channels are "the citizens['] airspace" in the sense that their content should be regulated by the government: unpopular or "irresponsible" (in your view) opinions should be suppressed.

Despite the obvious free speech implications, the government used to do precisely this, on the rationale that television channels were a limited resource that needed to be "balanced" -- even here in NYC we used to get, at most, seven channels. Advances in technology have rendered this model obsolete, however. The average citizen now receives scores or hundreds of channels. Alternate modes of communication, including internet sites maintained by both print and television news organizations, as well as political blogs, raise the number of readily available sources of political information into the thousands.

(As an aside, I must say that the internet is THE greatest boon to freedom of expression ever invented. The proliferation of political sites on the internet, from the far left to the far right, brings this country back to its roots, where early in its history every nut case printed broadsides, pamphlets, etc. It is more possible now than ever before to locate political views of every persuasion.)

At all events, whether regulation of the content of television was ever justified, there can be no basis for it now. Subject only to traditional First Amendment limits (yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, libel, pornography, etc.), both traditional and cable channels should have the same rights to say what they want as newspapers (and you and I) have always had.

I may dislike and complain about the tripe that CBS news and The New York Times put out. It is my right to do so. You may dislike and complain about Fox News, and you too have that right. But all three likewise have the right to say what they want, and the government shouldn't censor them.

The answer to free speech is more free speech!


Re: I'll Take A Stab at Part of This One [message #54902 is a reply to message #54901] Mon, 19 December 2005 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Geez; what a love-in! How can I refute that?
The precise point of my post; to express my opinion of the current News scene. But please give me this I beg of you; you are a bright guy; doesn't the pandering and condescending simpleminded reports on Fox irritate the hell out of you? Come-on. The repitition and bumper-sticker mentality has to get old and redundant; it just has to.
The New York Times is at least readable by a responsible adult. Your a native New Yorker; can you read the New York Post?
We have to demand of those who use the public airways some accountability and respect. On the internet everyone is so fractionalised that the opinions have no sequential focus; like a two-dimensional figure..they are missing the thought process needed to understand things in the larger sense so therefor they pose no threat because they are so easily manipulated. But the major news organisations need to be held to a higher standard.

Re: I'll Take A Stab at Part of This One [message #54903 is a reply to message #54902] Mon, 19 December 2005 12:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wayne Parham is currently offline  Wayne Parham
Messages: 18782
Registered: January 2001
Illuminati (33rd Degree)

Don't forget that news media is a for-profit enterprise. They get more viewers from controversy than they get from non-controversial factual reporting. So they have an incentive to polarize the public, to incite emotional responses. Rather than bore you with the facts, they'll excite you with an emotionally charged version, picking only those stories that might stir the viewers. Basically, the news media promotes propoganda for profit, all large media outlets, every one. If you want a higher standard, you'll need to turn off the television, avoid the daily rags and not watch any network news or read any newspapers. 'Cause they've all become tabloids. Both major political parties have become caricatures of themselves. The media is all too willing to exploit them to make "headlines" and the politicians enjoy the publicity so they have mutual goals fulfilled with this kind of exaggeration and hype.


Re: I'll Take A Stab at Part of This One [message #54904 is a reply to message #54902] Mon, 19 December 2005 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
elektratig is currently offline  elektratig
Messages: 348
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
MB,

I love the Post! After all, the Gray Lady doesn't give you Page Six!

In all seriousness, Fox is a mixed bag. Some of it is ridiculous. On the other hand, I think the Britt Hume evening program is the best one-hour news program on television. I watch it every chance I get.

The big difference between Fox, on the one hand, and the other networks (CBS, CNN, et al.) and the big print media (NYT, Washington Post), on the other, is that Fox makes no bones about the fact that it is basically pro-administration -- although I've seen harsher overt criticism of certain administration policies on Fox than I have on CBS. The others pretend that they are "objective" and express outrage when anyone questions their impartiality, even though everyone knows it's not true.

I've been reading a good deal of history about pre-Civil War America over the past several months, and I much prefer the honesty of the press back then. Papers made no pretense that they were impartial. To the contrary, they touted the fact that they were pro-Jackson or pro-Whig or whatever. There was truth in advertising, the reader knew what he was getting and could factor that in when assessing the information he was receiving. Fox, by and large, and many internet sites represent a return to those roots, and I think that's a good thing.

As for the internet, it may be "fractionalized" in the sense that there are so many sites that it's hard to focus on any one. But I disagree to the extent you are suggesting that particular sites present only half-digested opinions and rants without reasoned analyses of the underlying facts and considerations. There certainly are many such sites (Democratic Underground being a prime example). But to pick our last topic (torture) by way of example, I've come across many, many lengthy discussions of the issue, pro and con, on the internet that discuss the topic in far greater depth than I've seen in any print publication, including the revered NYT.

Let the love begin!


Another Internet Example [message #54905 is a reply to message #54904] Mon, 19 December 2005 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
elektratig is currently offline  elektratig
Messages: 348
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
In support of my contention about the depth of analysis on the internet, here, by way of further example, is a thorough, if necessarily tentative, analysis of the legality of the NSA domestic surveillance program. It's far more informative than the hysterical nonsense published in the NYT the other day -- and the Times, apparently, had a year to put its article together.

Re: Another Internet Example [message #54906 is a reply to message #54905] Mon, 19 December 2005 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Before I read this; who is Orrin Kerr?

Re: I'll Take A Stab at Part of This One [message #54907 is a reply to message #54903] Mon, 19 December 2005 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Manualblock is currently offline  Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (13th Degree)
Wayne and E-man; It is my position that the purpose of the media is not to guarranty that every word they write is a fact. First there are no facts. Only perceptions. It's like the old legal maxim that says the most unreliable witness is an eyewitness. After posting on this forum for several years now I see that there is very little agreement on what constitutes a fact even in this little corner of the world.
The purpose of media is to describe events. Thats what they should be doing. As far as bias in reportage; can we agree that the human brain is wired to operate under conditions of bias? So thats why we just tell what we see and then let the people ponder the meaning of the report.
The Times is an imperfect example of perfection but it is all we have in terms of integrity. What would you use as a reference; Fox? The Daily News?
So the responsibility of the reader is to bring his experience and intellect to the events reported on. At least thatts the way I see it.
So let me ask; has there ever been an honest reporter; (except for Chris Mathews that is.)


Re: I'll Take A Stab at Part of This One [message #54908 is a reply to message #54907] Mon, 19 December 2005 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Martinelli is currently offline  Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009
Illuminati (1st Degree)

Why not use Walter Cronkite as a reference? I'm the guys from the 60's had their lines to tow; but there isn't anything so demanding as American corporate profit structure as there is today. I think Wayne's on the right track here. It's all about ratings and profit. The high profile and controversial shit is where the most money is.

Then, they hide behind free speech, 1st and 5th amendment.

Law Professor . . . [message #54909 is a reply to message #54906] Tue, 20 December 2005 04:29 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
elektratig is currently offline  elektratig
Messages: 348
Registered: May 2009
Grand Master
He's an Associate Professor of Law at The George Washington University Law School. I've found Professor Kerr analyses quite reliable. The essay is not required reading, although you might like it because it tentatively suggests that the program may be illegal. The real point is that there's a wealth of information out there.

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