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Something To Be Proud Of [message #54879]

Thu, 15 December 2005 09:42

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Thank God this holiday season that a few hours ago the House Of Representatives voted to back Murtha's Bill to ban torture. Every military expert and criminal expert in the world condemn's torture as ineffective and unworthy of a civilised nation. Every soldier knows and hates the ramifications of having a government backed policy promoting the torture of human beings. About the only folks in favor; VP Cheney and D. Rumsfeld never fought in any war I know of.
I guess the man upstairs was watching.

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Re: Something To Be Proud Of [message #54880 is a reply to message #54879]

Thu, 15 December 2005 17:02

Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

Wouldn't you think that any real torture for interrogating purposes would be done under lock and key anyway? I think there could be some circumstances where the need for such actions are justifiable.

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Re: Something To Be Proud Of [message #54881 is a reply to message #54880]

Thu, 15 December 2005 17:51

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

So; does it work? Because I see the CIA guys who say it is mostly worthless as far as gathering information. It's unreliable and wastes valuable time. Guys will say anything and are easily manipulated.
And of course we would like to be better people than that; I think.
If it worked we would be watching Osama on trial instead of that nitwit Hussein. Don't tell me those guys the CIA has over in Europe don't know where he is.
Are they doing it on the QT; probably.

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Re: Something To Be Proud Of [message #54882 is a reply to message #54881]

Thu, 15 December 2005 18:40

Bill Martinelli
Messages: 677
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (1st Degree)

A lot of what we hear about in the media about ruthless torture is unbecoming. It's nice to be 'better than that'
I never got the whole concept of rules for war, things like the Geneva convention you hear so much about. I never understood why countries kept PO W's either. To me war is 'eat or be eaten' situation. These are just some things I dont understand. I'm not really advocating anything.

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Wrong Again, MB [message #54883 is a reply to message #54879]

Thu, 15 December 2005 19:44

elektratig
Messages: 348
Registered: May 2009

Grand Master

I'll pass over the effectiveness point -- of course it can be.

The media has grossly distorted this issue. It has nothing to do with torture. There is already a federal statute banning torture. The dispute was over McCain's ridiculous definition, which bars "cruel, inhuman, OR DEGRADING treatment or punishment." (emphasis added)

What the hell does THAT mean? At least one Gitmo detainee claimed that he was degraded because he was forced to deal with a woman guard. If we have a high-level AQ detainee in custody, I say, degrade the hell out him.

May I ask you about the "ticking time bomb" (or more likely "ticking WMD") scenario? Is "torture" still off limits?

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Re: Wrong Again, MB [message #54885 is a reply to message #54883]

Thu, 15 December 2005 20:13

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Say where you been? The ticking time bomb? So what is that?
The limitations of interrogation techniques are described fairly precisely; and it ain't as mild as you would think. Remmember; the detainees have never been charged with a crime. You either believe in the rule of law or you live in the jungle. Hey; I know I'm gonna survive; believe that.
Ask the guys who do this for a living; not politicians.

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Re: Something To Be Proud Of [message #54886 is a reply to message #54882]

Thu, 15 December 2005 20:18

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Simple; why not nuke them then? No rules; no fouls.
The rules of war are an attempt at humans to create civilisation a step at a time. Stalin didn't believe in them; neither did Salvador Allende and he loved torture as a political device. Thats what you get without any rules.
I think the rules; seriously, came about because people are scared shitless of the alternative because they know what people are capable of.
People are not fundamentally good.

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Ticking Time Bomb [message #54887 is a reply to message #54885]

Fri, 16 December 2005 06:30

elektratig
Messages: 348
Registered: May 2009

Grand Master

What I call the "ticking time bomb" scenario is an updated variant of the "Dirty Harry" plot. A terrorist has planted a bomb -- let's make it a dirty nuclear bomb -- somewhere in, say, NYC. The terrorist has been captured, but he won't reveal where the bomb is planted. What do you do?

If you think that's unrealistic, I'll give you a more subtle version. We capture Zarquawi -- someone we know is a high-level terrorist who has tremendous amounts of valuable information -- the identities and locations of high-level associates, the locations of safehouses and caches of IEDs and other weapons, information about planned and ongoing operations, etc. Obtaining this information will save at least hundreds and more likely thousands of innocent lives. He won't tell us anything. What do you do?

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Re: Ticking Time Bomb [message #54888 is a reply to message #54887]

Fri, 16 December 2005 07:49

Manualblock
Messages: 4973
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (13th Degree)

Geez; E-Man, aren't these the guys who will blow themselves up? The kind of torture you describe is a scenario from a movie or something; people either would kill themselves or you would not get any info from them. Hell; we can't even find Osama and he is on dialysis.
And lets say this script actually occurred; what kind of torture do you think would work? Would people who are willing to committ suicide at the drop of a hat be worried about that? And lets say this happened; then law or no law they would do what it took.
So you think we should allow torture of anyone the government wants just so we can be prepared if by some billion to one chance this movie script plays out? Torture...I don't know how many who may not know anything for the next how many years, just in case this might happen and we might catch a guy who doesn't kill himself and is willing to talk?
Sounds like a bad deal.
At the risk of sounding maudlin; thats not what we are about as Americans.
So; whaddya think?

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Re: Ticking Time Bomb [message #54889 is a reply to message #54888]

Fri, 16 December 2005 11:21

Damir
Messages: 1005
Registered: May 2009

Illuminati (2nd Degree)

Hehe, just imagine Mr. Elektratig one day in his world, driving his car. Police stopped him.
"Hey, mister, who passed through the red light?"
"I don`t know, I wasn`t!"
"Allright, Jack - give me the saw, pliers and lighter, for beginning..."

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